Summary
Churches across the U.S. are grappling with dwindling attendance and financial instability, forcing many to close or sell properties.
The Diocese of Buffalo has shut down 100 parishes since the 2000s and plans to close 70 more. Nationwide, church membership has dropped from 80% in the 1940s to 45% today.
Some churches repurpose their land to survive, like Atlanta’s First United Methodist Church, which is building affordable housing.
Others, like Calcium Church in New York, make cutbacks to stay open. Leaders warn of the long-term risks of declining community and support for churches.
Good.
Good.
Great news! Maybe we can finally tax these cults as well.
Considering scientology has their tendrils in a fair bit of Hollywood, that might actually backfire on government coffers. If they demand their members strike, the film industry is going to be in for pain.
No way would SAG strike over Scientology getting taxed. Scientology are parasites and we’d all be better off without them.
Not SAG, just the cultists. There’s enough of them in prominent roles that it would cause financial damage (including to themselves), delays, and problems.
If it’s not a real strike, then they’re replaceable. A “bye Felicia” sort of situation.
That’s easier said than done when it’s a lead actor refusing to work during filming. They’ll be breaching a contract, sure, but replacing them is going to waste money and time in recasting, rescheduling, refilming, etc.
Would they actually do it, knowing they’re in for a multimillion dollar lawsuit? Probably. The Cult of Scientology practices excommunication, and it’s a strong motivator for indoctrinees.
As churches decline we’re losing what is, essentially, a free communal space. Church was a place where people built community.
We need to replace it with something, not just cheer because a shitty religion is dying.
So you’re saying we should have more boardgaming conventions?
I’m all in on that proposal.
Not conventions. A convention requires paying for a convention space, and that requires making attendees pay for admittance or getting sponsors to pay in their stead so they can sell products. That’s not community.
The power of churches is they are entirely free and not commodified. That’s what makes them communal. We’d need something like a communal boardgame hall, supported by donations that anyone can come to without needing to pay anything.
The power of churches is they are entirely free and not commodified. That’s what makes them communal. We’d need something like a communal boardgame hall, supported by donations that anyone can come to without needing to pay anything.
I think you don’t understand “Free”. They weren’t free.
Use required, at the very least, selling your soul. But more pragmatically, a flat 10% tax- which frequently funded ostentatious lifestyles of the priests and pastors; and sacrificing your children to pedos.
But sure. It created “community”…
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Use required, at the very least, selling your soul.
But since souls aren’t real it was free.
But more pragmatically, a flat 10% tax-
Tithes are voluntary. Taxes are enforced at the tip of a sword or the barrel of a gun. Quiet different.
I think they meant soul as in personhood or however you want to put it, its metaphorical speech ya pedant.
Secondly tithes are socially enforced to what degree depends on what group we are talking about but at minimum there is an expectation that you pay it, you also get fuck all out of it making it a completely empty transaction unlike taxes which gives roads, fire departments, libraries, et cetera.
Okay, but they did get something out of it. They got the Church, and the services it provided them. We can replace that with tax funded secular institutions, but it doesn’t seem like that’s happening.
Instead the church dies and nothing replaces it.
Boardgaming congregations, then.
Honestly a community hall that fills similar roles to the library as others mention would be awesome. You could get people running community brunches on weekends, you could get holiday parties and rooms for groups to meet. You could use it to host food not bombs or other food giveaways. You could let it be what churches are supposed to be, but replace the pastor and pews with a meal space and some administrators
Hell yeah, my wife won’t play Arcs with me. I fully support more board gaming.
Unfortunately the internet is now the new 3rd space.
Religion advocated for bad policies in government which dug their own grave.
I don’t feel bad they’re closing down.
The internet isn’t a third place! Not only do you have to pay to access it, but more importantly, it isn’t a physical place. None of us are people here. We’re strings of characters on a screen behind pseudo-anonymous handles. You can’t help me, I can’t help you.
This is not community. It can’t be.
I think you’re a person. You should be more kind to yourself. That kind of talk never gets us anywhere.
Not on the internet. I’m a string of characters. I don’t have a face, I don’t have a voice, I don’t have a body, I am a handle and a comment tree. I cease to exist as soon as you aren’t paying attention to this comment chain. I could be a bot, you have no idea.
The internet can never be community. We are only human when we do human things. This digital space isn’t human at all.
I mean, why are you even here then? Exchanging information IS a human thing, and we’re (probably) all people behind the screens. I agree that physicality is a necessity for a 3rd space, but I disagree that it’s necessary for community.
To say that we can’t help people with our words strikes me as rather pessimistic.
I’m here for fun, not community. None of this shit matters. It’s not real.I don’t know why I’m here. Just to get ganged up on and hurt myself.
i feel the downvotes kinda proved your point…
._. *patpat*
It do be like that sometimes…
But even having fun maybe matters too?
I’m sorry you got ganged up on… I, at least, enjoyed reading your comments.
Edit:
It just occurred to me that tone really doesn’t come across on the internet, and “Why are you even here then?” could be read in an accusatory way, when I really didn’t intend it as such. I meant it in more of an interrogatory sense, and I wasn’t trying to be mean. I was curious. ._.
You have as much right to be here as anyone else!
Tell that to the numerous thriving online communities.
Like this one? You think this is community? You don’t even know anyone’s names.
I mean, does that matter that much? Your irl name is just an identifier that points to you. Just like queermunist is an identifier that also points to you.
I’ve seen you before, I’ve read some of your comments. I wouldn’t say I know you per se, but I at least recognize your name in passing and have an inkling of what to expect from you.
You could almost think of it as we both go to the same school, but have different friend groups so maybe never really interact, but still know each other exists.
And some of the more prolific users I understand a bit more of. And some of the smaller communities I’m part of I know all of the regular users a little bit better.
But you’re right, it’s a bit harder than in person because you can’t put a face or mannerisms to the handle, but I think you can still know people here a little bit.
Sorry, Im pretty sure thats all were likely to get. The way things are going well be lucky to have public schools in 20 years, let alone a bunch of new publicly funded community spaces.
The internet can form community but it’s not the same. I’m about to move across the country and crash with a friend I met through the internet; and I’ve only seen her irl twice. That whole friend group are some of my best friends. And they aren’t even the only close friendships I have through the internet.
But also, I’ve done the only socialize online thing and it broke my mind in college and again in the pandemic (which is when I met both friend groups I mentioned earlier). I need physical places where I can interact positively with other physical humans. I need physical places that I can coexist with other people and that’s what an actual third space is. And I’ve seen what only existing on the internet does to people and it’s not good
Yes yes thank you, this is what I meant. I know I pissed a lot of people off by saying that internet communities aren’t real, but what I meant is that they aren’t a replacement for community. The distance, the lag, the lack of a face or voice or body, the time zones, there’s so many elements that make internet “community” into something that I struggle to call community.
If people want to call it community then fine, but it’s not a neighborhood or a workplace or (in the earlier example) congregation.
A third place has nothing at all to do with what is and isn’t paywalled. If I rented a Boeing 787 to take day trips with my friends every day for the next month, that’d still be a third place. It has everything to do with the first place being home and the second being work. It also has nothing, therefore, to do with “community” or “not community”.
Even if we work under your (completely wrong) definition of third places as inherently fostering tight-knit community and not just being a place for you to exist around other people, smaller communities absolutely have the opportunity to do this. Roblox was one of my main third places when I was a kid, and it was a better third place than I could’ve had in real life. I met actual, real friends who I talked to daily for years and who accepted me. Right now I work on Wikipedia, which if you spend long enough there unambiguously has a community among the more experienced editors. I’m even in a Discord server where I joined for the project, ended up joining the team, and now feel like I’m good friends with the people there. Even Lemmy I’d say is small enough to start seeing a lot of familiar faces over time.
The Internet isn’t inherently bad at fostering community. It’s just that the modern Internet places a fuckload of emphasis on being in gigantic, uninteractive pools of people like Twitch chats that fly at a million miles a second and require you to spend $500 for a streamer to blink in your direction; a shitty short-form video service where you can comment and like but aren’t seriously befriending anyone outside of extreme edge cases; a gigantic link aggregator where what you say is almost always drowned out immediately; multiplayer games that have new lobbies every match; etc.
I don’t think the people you meet on Roblox or Wikipedia can be community the way a church can. Even if you want to force the definition of community to include ephemeral, non-physical, and paid places then you have to accept that a church fills a far different kind of communal void than the internet. People at your church can come to your house and help you do stuff. That’s huge! You’d struggle to get any kind of real, tangible help from an internet place. Maybe some money, but that’s it.
That just doesn’t feel like community to me.
Real community is when people are in a cult whose authority figures systematically molest children. Got it.
Any other words of wisdom, oh one so ignorant of what a third place is?
Real community is when people can go to each other’s houses and help with difficult chores, or can cook food for each other and eat together, or can take care of one another when they are sick, or hide from government agents who come to kill their neighbors.
Death to Christianity. I am not making any defense of the church. In fact, I literally said we need to replace it. 🙄
Religion in general fosters these sorts of toxic power structures because it’s based on fucking nonsense.
I think it counts as a third place. All it really takes to be a third place is not being home or work. Whether physical or not is definitely debatable and I think physical third places are a must, but I don’t think a third place being paid disqualifies it.
For one, a lot of folks don’t have to pay for internet. I can go to my local library or community center and be online if needed. There are also some government programs that may provide free internet. But even if it is paid, typical third places have traditionally included settings like cafes, bars, the gym, bookstores, theaters, etc. which are also all pay-to-use environments.
Pay-to-use can not be the basis of community.
Unfortunately we have to pay monthly tribute to our landed lord to be in any community.
Why’s that? Any enthusiast hobby is the basis of community, and that typically includes some degree of material investment into said hobby.
I used to take martial arts classes, which was a great way to meet new people. And we’d have opportunities to get together and meet outside of our regularly scheduled classes, but the unifier that brought everyone together was the class that we were each paying to attend.
I mean, even in the church example, you get guilted for not donating when they pass the collection box around. What difference is there with a community that shames you for not paying?
Sorry, I meant “can not” in the sense that we can’t let that be the basis of community.
Commodified spaces and hobbies alienate people who can’t afford to pay. The church, at least, allows the poor to attend.
I’m not sure if the church “allows” the poor insomuch as they simply need the poor. The vulnerable members of society are really the church’s only vehicle for growth, and so they take advantage of the needs of marginalized people to spread their ideology. Indoctrination masked behind charity. It’s more of an exploitative relationship in that regard.
Secular meeting spaces with no cost would be preferred, and they definitely exist, but you’ll be hard pressed to find a sort of standardized approach across environments and demographics without the dictatorial voice of god (or the state) demanding compliance to the degree the church does, which makes it an institution.
As another example, I also used to be part of a local Cantonese language practice meetup that would meet once weekly at our local mall. It was a small group, but we’d just sit at the food court and practice basic conversations. No barrier for entry, all welcome, but not the sort of thing that would have broad appeal, you know?
I know you’re getting dragged in the comments / downvoted, but the premise that the internet is not a fully reasonable ‘third’ place has some rationality, as does the premise that churches have been this ‘third’ place for many. And I think ‘third’ places are where leftist community-engagement thrives, even in religous settings.
I mention leftist simply because many here are commenting from leftist Lemmy instances, myself included. Historically – and for a moment, consider this outside the typically nonreligious, leftist approaches to community building – churches have occupied a helpful, physical ‘third’ place like this for centuries.
When they are healthy, churches have been relationship hubs of solidarity and mutual aid. They have also been regularly used platforms from which to mobilize for social justice and collective action – even today, I know of some churches that are engaged directly in social justice and collective action for queer communities, debt reduction / removal, resource sharing, and more. Liberation theology is gravely leftist, as well, and comes from Latin American churches with leftist clergy and non-clergy at the helm of both theory and praxis. The Civil Rights Movement was borne out of black American churches, and suffrage movements met in churchhouses as much as anywhere else. This list goes on.
Liberation / radical inclusivity activities can spring from any setting where people gather regularly and talk about change. While the internet can make that sometimes easier, it has been historically in-person, where folks gather, that these movements find momentum time and again. ‘Third’ places are historically and functionally physical.
Theory is great for the internet, and even some community-engagement through internet discussions on theory is great. Some, but not all.
Praxis happens offline, though, in anti-technofeudally controlled arenas.
I don’t know how people can insist “the internet is a community!” then then use downvotes as if that shit isn’t toxic to community.
Of course there are no people online. We’re all dogs using the internet while the humans are at work.
Yall are dogs to right?
You pay for nearly every third space.
Bars,bowling alleys, sports leagues, internet, and even churches.
In every space you are a name with a personality
Like , say, a community center? I took karate when I was 12 at my local community center.
Having a karate class in a now defunct church sounds amazing.
Absolutely.
But every rural shithole community has a church. Only cities have community centers.
That’s opportunity cost - they would have money for a community center if they didn’t spend it on the church.
They don’t have the money to spend on the church either, that’s why churches are closing.
Per capita contributions haven’t gone down nearly as much as attendance, though. Churches are losing money because the public is rejecting them on principle.
Not what I meant.
I mean, people aren’t going to church, and they’re just spending the money on themselves. Bills and shit. People who stop going to church aren’t donating it to their community center, which means community centers are not replacing churches.
I thought we were discussing what could be? Or what ought to be? I understand that community centers have not already replaced churches.
We need to replace it with something, not just cheer because a shitty religion is dying.
Why not both?
We aren’t doing both. That was my point?
As much as I’m happy to see churches go, I agree with this. I used to go to church even as a non believer for this reason. Outreach into the community is much easier when backed by an organization that is trusted, and has resources at their disposal.
It’s not just religions drying up, it’s all of the old hierarchical social clubs. Their membership are aging and dying off, and they’re not doing anything to recruit Millennials or GenZ. The internet opened up vast opportunities for non-work social contact and relaxed the demand that people gather in one physical place at a fixed time with rules to minimize chaos.
Okay, we are physical beings and we need to gather in physical spaces.
We can’t all just be alone in our homes screaming at each other on the internet.
While I like that the church is less popular, you are right. A sense of community is needed for a social species like us humans. This is how street gangs work, they recruit young and probably lost/lonely kids and make them feel like they are part of something.
It’s not free, though… I’ve watched my mother give obscene amounts of money to the church. She even did it when I was growing up, and we had NO extra money to give.
So yeah, cheer. Replace these with something better, like an affinity club with upfront dues that are significantly cheaper.
We have to actively replace them, it won’t happen on its own.
they weren’t free. Attendance required a 10% income tax.
Only in Germany. In America, that is optional. In fact, most of these closings could be avoided if all members gave 5%. Average is much lower.
Just because no one is taking it directly from the paycheck does not mean it’s “optional”. Religions in general, and Christianity in particular are very good at coercing donations.
Most the places that are closing are closing because they never managed to get kids in and brainwashed and their core followers are aging out of an income.
Is this a Catholic thing? I’ve been forced to attend many different churches and none of them forced my family to pay anything.
I agree wholeheartedly. I don’t know what the replacement would be, however. I keep thinking about that when I think about trying to bootstrap something in my community. Something that somehow (?) is supported to keep the heat and the lights on, and everything clean and very safe, the taxes paid, but provides a place to: 1) meet-up for book clubs 2) has a maker/hacker space 3) Has break-outs for hosting meetups along with projectors, etc. 4) provides open source training of various kinds. 5) Throws social functions, with food and modest amounts of alcohol… 6) A place with trained staff that put on things for kids to do after school lets out or in the summers
Something with wifi, where access to snacks/coffee is also possible, where people can hang out all day and not feel any guilt for buying nothing or only one coffee and just being in the presence of others.
In some cases, I see libraries trying to serve some of these functions. In some cases, I have seen some “community centers” or the building owned by Elks/Masons also trying for a subset of this… if there is some nonprofit or b corp out there making something like this happen at scale, I’d love to hear it. I’ve been part of meetups that struggle to find/keep spaces they can use, often they have to rely on someone being employed at some company or another.
But yes, I’m no champion of churches. I also don’t want every single public space to essentially dwindle to nothing. Malls are not that - and they are mostly dwindling, too. Starbucks is not that. If the only remaining public space is only trails and maybe the post office (if Musk et al don’t kill that too) and the DMV, what a sad state of affairs…
Boardroom meme:
Boss: Church attendance is down. What can we do to turn this around?
Person 1: discreetly move pedophile pastors around to hide their proclivities?
Person 2: assure the congregation that we still hate gay people
Person 3: follow the teachings of Christ and show love and charity to our neighbors regardless of who they are
Person 3 is thrown out the stained glass window.
Person 2: Why don’t we literally do what Saudi Arabia / Iran does but Christian
I remember when someone (was it on Pharyngula?) coined the term “fatwa envy”. And maaaaaaan, did that really summarize it just so much. You can tell that some NatCs are downright jealous of what their conservative Abrahamic cousins can get away with in other countries.
I chuckled that the window in this meme was stained glass, instead of the highrise like it usually is.
I was pretty happy to see the Atlanta church mentioned in the article who appears to be opting for the third option!
The United Methodist Church in my town is similar. However, the American UMC just had a schism, where all the homophobes left for their new denomination.
And nothing of value was lost
It’s weird how history rhymes - see the formation of the Southern Baptists…
Pit of vipers closes due to insufficient snakebite volunteers.
The small churches that are more likely to actually be charitable and are more likely to be inclusive will shut down. The bigot-run megachurches will be just fine.
The mega rich that run them are the fundamental issue.
As always.
The internet is killing God but giving birth to a new age of conspiracy theorists.
So, not much has changed.
Agreed. I welcome this, but I will withhold being optimistic that it means that it is because critical thinking skills are proliferating throughout the population…sure, it should be, because for decades now we have the ability to easily debunk really stupid claims nearly instantly, there are a lot of people making a lot of money pushing complete nonsense at people with algorithms now…
If I were to guess at the real reason it’s because, well, there is a lot of entertainment that church is in competition with: games, streaming services, social media, sportsball, reality TV and so on…and face it, attending church is generally dull as dirt.
Theist’s are killing god.
I pray to God everyday that i can live long enough to witness the day humanity completely abandons religion. Inshallah🙏
You will never witness this. God Emperor Leto is the Holy personification of Shai-Hulud and the Orange Catholic Bible is the only truth in the deep dark known Universe. The only faith humanity shall ever have constantly at its side is war.
Crazy that it takes the church shitting down for them to actually follow gods message of giving to the poor.
There’s shit down everywhere!
They are working behind the scenes to push women back into the kitchen and stoking white nationalist rage.
Hip Hip
From what it seems to me, the megachurches are doing okay. It’s the more traditional denominations that are suffering. Overall religion might be on a decline, but certain sects are flourishing. One silver lining about some of the megachurches is that they’re led by a strong personality and once they’re gone, the whole organization putters out. They’re more organized around an individual than a theology.
45% is considerably higher than I expected. I thought it would be closer to 10-15%.
Membership is not the same as attendance, and it’s WAY less than the number of people giving financially.
I was a preacher at a 1200-member church that had weekly attendance around 150-200.
And based on the demographics of the area, we received less than 1% of the annual income for those who did attend regularly.
The thing about churches is that they don’t require payment of any kind, and kind people will dedicate time and effort in a very loving way that is inefficient, when what we really need is cash.
My go-to example is the quilting ladies who spend 40 hours each on handmade quilts using expensive materials to give to the poor. It’s extremely kind and their work is exquisite, but with the money spent making those quilts for 20 people, we could buy blankets, a couple weeks of food, and new clothing for 50 full families.
The thing about giving money, though, is that it feels impersonal to the person giving the gift. This is also why the poor should be taken care of through taxation. Taking care of people’s basic needs shouldn’t need to feel intimate and spiritual - it should be routine and boring.
My go-to example is the quilting ladies who spend 40 hours each on handmade quilts using expensive materials to give to the poor. It’s extremely kind and their work is exquisite, but with the money spent making those quilts for 20 people, we could buy blankets, a couple weeks of food, and new clothing for 50 full families.
Yeah but those ladies feel better about themselves, which is what religion is about not helping people.
Those ladies justifiably feel good for sharing their time and resources to help others. Fuck anyone who thinks kindness isn’t laudable.
The tragedy of it is that their kindness on its own isn’t enough because of greater societal issues that shouldn’t have to be addressed by private charities, including the church. The church shouldn’t have to be a food bank and disaster relief organization. It shouldn’t have to weigh the value of gifts based on how they’ll address the basic human needs of the community.
But in so much of the country, the church makes up the entirety of local social services. In small towns, you have a police department to handle crime and the church to handle everything else.
You make the comment “the poor should be taken care of through taxation”. How do you feel about churches being taxed?
I am not religious at all, but I do know a pastor who is very kind, and have talked with him quite a bit. While he believes in God and the Bible etc, he is also respectful and understanding of the times. He believes in abortion, and takes criticism in stride without trying to make stuff up when responding. If he doesn’t know, he will admit as much.
I called out his entire church group in front of him for being hypocrites (I had/have some minimal involvement with them due to my relationship) when they openly criticized another religion and started trash talking them because an extremist did a suicide bombing. They immediately started trying to backpedal and make excuses for what they were saying. There were several other very shitty things a few of them did over a period of several months so I started pointing everything out. They all got silent and the pastor stepped in to appreciate in a manner of words what I said, and told them that kind of response to an event no matter how bad it was, was inappropriate and not representative of an entire group of people.
Ok, so sorry for the back story but there is a reason. Pretty much every church I have been a part of (I grew up in the Bible belt and had religion shoved down my throat growing up) I have seen nothing but hypocrites. One single pastor that I have met, in my entire life, I feel would not complain if churches started getting taxed.
So what is your take on churches getting taxed?
I think churches should be treated no differently than any other non-profit organization. For most churches, that includes tax exemption.
But I also think churches should be audited more aggressively, and that the tax-exempt status be revoked when appropriate. I’ve only seen one church get its tax-exempt status revoked, and it was because the preacher told the congregation to vote for Obama. Strictly speaking, that was absolutely appropriate, but I’d like to have seen it applied equally to all the churches who openly back the other side.
As much as I feel churches should be taxed regardless, I could go along with stricter enforcement of the non-taxable status if it were unbiased and actually enforced regularly. I wholeheartedly agree with you on having that enforcement applied to all sides.
We often see how rules and regulations are easily abused, and the amount of money to buy someone has been shown to be relatively low so actual enforcement is questionable at best. Were it not though, and we were seeing verifiable (transparent) progress on actual enforcement, I would be ok with that status being maintained.
Not that my single opinion matters, but things can work when done correctly and I believe in the right of individual people to practice their own religion as long as those beliefs stay contained within their circles and do not have any influence in policies, politics, communities outside of their own personal choices. Though that is an extremely difficult task to accomplish. People have jobs, and lives, some of which happen to be in influential positions and their choices can and likely are influenced by their personal beliefs related to their religion.
We end up in this conundrum where someone else’s beliefs are imposed upon the masses. To that point, you could also say, well non-religious voices also influence choices that are imposed on people as well, but generally these choices are more about being less restrictive to access to things like medical care or abortions or whatever other myriad of things there are that get voted on. So it’s kind of a double edged sword, but the religious choices are often more restrictive to people’s rights.
The end result often being, we don’t like this thing so we are going to take away your ability to do it, read about it, etc. So no progress is made. This also coupled with rampant corruption and the use of religion by corrupt individuals to reduce education and control the masses keeps leading us down the road we are on, and until we have another revolution or the government is expelled en masse and rebuilt with a younger, educated, less corrupt (hopeful wishing) generation, then we will never make any strong and lasting changes that would serve to help everyone rather than restrict their rights.
It would be wonderful if we lived in a world where people could have their beliefs but mind their own business when it came to other people’s choices.
Thanks for responding and have a great day!
Mega churches are still going strong though. There definitely needs to be a way (other than taxes because separation of church and state is impt) to get churches to spend that money back in the community, but instead it just ends up enriching the owners and investors. If there was anything which needed an anti-corruption intervention.
Churches should be tax exempt only so far as they are demonstrably charitable. All other income should be taxed. The taxes should go to fund abortion and gender affirmation surgeries.
Mega churches are still going strong though
The worst people still go to church and still run them. I guarantee you 99% of every mega church’s attendance is MAGAts and 100% of their pastors are.
There isn’t a true seperation of church and state at this point. There are plenty of fundamentalist politicians, and churches and religious organizations donate (bribe) politicians as much as business orgs do. If they are going to donate to politicians they should be taxed.
There have been plenty of laws passed attempting to force xtians bullshit, it usually gets challenged and removed but it constantly happens.
Goes hand in hand with a similar story I heard about a month ago regarding a shortage of pastors. Apparently it’s so bad, quite a few have to lead sermons at multiple churches and many simply skip some weeks. Also less trained people taking up the role, whatever that means anyway.
Honestly, get ratio’d, cultists.
IIUC, some are coming from developing countries.
Heaven isn’t real
We have the means to make our own right here, right now but some of us are too greedy to make it happen.
More importantly, in heaven there is no beer, that’s why we drink it here.
