Kids don’t even understand file structures because modern OSs obfuscate that stuff.
That’s my biggest gripe to be honest with modern OSs. My files in my folders are organized like I organize my house. I live in and around that. I hate the idea of a “Downloads” and other stuff with “automatically in the cloud backup for this app”. Give me a file to save you stupid app.
Yeah ya stupid app!
tell em!
Kids? Try being a manager trying to hire for entry level data work.
I got maybe one out of five people who even knew how to do basic things like opening windows explorer and navigating through folders. And from that slim margin, finding someone who actually knows how to use software like excel or outlook or word, it makes me want to reword the listing to say that we need people with 5 five years experience. For entry level.
I have become that which we hate. I am demanding experience for entry level work, simply because the entry-level work pool has zero knowledge how things work. You have spent all your time browsing and none of your time challenging yourselves to install software yourself, to copy and move files, or tried even opening your “settings” panel to adjust things. When I started working a lifetime ago, I took some free lessons in learning how to navigate excel and other popular programs. Using that TINY bit of training, I went on to make formulas and automated several of the systems at my first job. I went from counting screws in the warehouse to an eventual VP position.
You can get much, much further ahead of the curve if you actually try to learn a little more about the things you use every day, and you will grow your opportunities more than you can imagine.
“Get off my lawn kids. And god forbid we train people.”
The common man won’t go out of their way to learn a software they don’t even know they will use. Why is it somehow worst for young people?
The personal computer as we grew up with is long gone, but somehow, companies and hiring managers expect everyone to be like it is still the case.
And let’s be real, the vast majority of people don’t know how to use excel even if they work with it every day. For them, it’s a database with a UI and a chart module.
So yeah, ask for 5 years experience for an entry level data entry position, that’ll fix it for you.
As someone in the generation mentioned in the OP meme I can confirm, most people in my generation don’t know how to use Excel either, didn’t know it when we were younger and that is mostly because it is largely used in professional settings for a narrow range of jobs for its actual purpose and everyone else in a slightly wider range of jobs would be better off using a web app with an actual database.
My last job still had an access app for generating task lists
I’ve met software developers who didn’t know how to use Excel properly (in the sense of not even knowing they could use formulas).
I think that’s very much for the reason you state: they “won’t go out of their way to learn a software they don’t even know they will use”.
It’s not just a “common man” thing, it’s an everybody thing - there’s just too much stuff and not enough time to learn it all, so even software developers might never find themselves in a situation were they have to understand Excel enough to know such simple things as how to use functions in the cells, how to use references to other cells or how to make some references be relative to a cell’s position and other absolute.
Mind you, they’ll probably learn it way faster than “common” people simply because so much of its advanced usage follows “programmer logic”, but that still requires them to be forced to actually use it long enough and often enough that they put the effort into learning it.
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Well I’m your man! Been using Windows since I stopped using DOS. I meet every requirement you’ve listed here for the job you’ve described and then some. And not one of your peers will give me a call back. Not one.
If nothing else, gimme some pointers about how to make it thru your ATS. If i can get human eyes I can get hired. Problem is getting that far.
And pay is 39k.
Amen. Been on the hunt for 3 years, had one call back. It’s brutal.
I am demanding experience for entry level work, simply because the entry-level work pool has zero knowledge how things work.
And they don’t need to, that’s not what entry level means.
If a skill isn’t needed in day to day life anymore and is needed for the job you’re putting out, it’s no longer a common knowledge skill.
When the talent pool changes, so should expectations.
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Kids aren’t well organized and file structures take time and practice to understand. No idea why anyone would assume a 10 year old who has been using a computer for maybe two or three years would be as experienced as a 30 year old who’d been doing the work for over 20.
Also, no shortage of Millennials who don’t know how computers work. I deal with them every day.
Yes. We are.
We are young with to have learned tech at an early age, but old enough that the tech wasn’t user friendly when we were kids, so we needed to understand it better than people do in the smartphone generation.
Installing a new game on my PC in high school was a multi-hour, sometimes multi-day ordeal.
Plugging in a secondary hard drive involved putting jumpers on pins to keep the system from trying to boot off it.
Assigning ports on peripherals involved understanding how to count in binary so you could assign addresses on dip switches.
Installing a printer involved unholy alliances with formless beings.
Every 2-3 years, I still wake up wearing black robes in a strange room in Romania, blood on my hands and a lingering scent of cordite in the air. I’m fairly certain that’s related to the Canon BJC driver issues I had upgrading my AST to Windows 95.
Random BSOD from changing… absolutely fucking nothing, then spending 2 days trying to recover, before saying fuck it and reinstalling windows, so you can play WC1 or D1…good old days.
Also printers can suck it. 20 years ago maintaining a fucking print server was bullshit… I’d rather deal with BES for another 100 years.
I’d rather deal with BES for another 100 years.
Cool it, Mario… oh, the menus -shivers-
Lol I might have to take that back…BES was a pile of epic smoldering shit…even the engineers would tell me it was shit. I’m pretty sure I reinstalled that damn thing a thousand times. It was like winning the lottery when the CEO finally wanted and iPhone and then forced the reset of the company to android or iPhone… myself and my junior admin had beers in the office when we got the last user off it and got to shut it down on a Friday. Best day ever.
Installing a printer is still often a deal with the devil
Yeah. I’ve had to return printers that wouldn’t let me install drivers without also agreeing to install spyware.
iOS is literally designed for toddlers to be able to use it. “iPad kids” aren’t especially gifted, “iPad adults” are especially stupid.
But on the bright side, those same groups think they “know computers” because they can press large, brightly colored buttons - so they walk around with unearned confidence in their abilities and impatience/lack of appreciation for the people that actually have to fix things.
It’s also why a large swatch of these same fucking idiot, drains on humanity loudly challenge the validity of voting tech infrastructure without any factual basis to their argument - they just “feel” like they get it.
”iPad adults” are especially stupid.
Does this mean a specific type of adult, or adults who use iPads? Cause…I consider myself pretty technically gifted, I’m a software developer, previously worked IT…and I love my iPad (for the things it’s good for).
Not OP but I suspect they mean adults that struggle with normal technology but thrive on ipads (can remember the button they use to open sodoku)
Nothing at all wrong with making technology easy to use for the masses, but this can create problems.
Even the “problems” are only really a problem for those who value understanding how Tech works and hence see a lack of it as a problem (welcome to Lemmy!).
I’m not so sure that, in the greater scheme of things, not understanding the innards of Tech is a “problem” anymore than not knowing how to fix your own car is a “problem”.
The only way I can see that it might be a problem in a more general sense of the word is if that’s helping enabling enshittification because people don’t understand Tech enough to be able to avoid or more away from enshittified options.
As a millenial nurse watching gen z new grads hunt and peck with their index fingers to write a shift note, 100%. I don’t think my parents really appreciated how much constantly being on AIM with my friends as a tween actually really benefited my typing skills in a way that’s been much more valuable to my career than algebra.
All the math you need to be a nurse is ratio / proportion and kitchen measurements to track I/O. With a modern EMR system (electronic medical record) that does most of the math for you you don’t even need that. The rest is latin and greek root words for various body parts and fluids and a vague understanding of how they’re all related (hyper-tension in the cerebral is bad because the cerebral is surrounded by a bone case and bones no stretch. That means the cerebral pops out of the bone holes and once it’s done that it does NOT go back in correctly like a squeezy ball toy). That gets you through the board exams.
After a year or two in practice you’ve just seen the same shit with a millimeter of difference over and over and over that you either know what to do about it or who to call to do something about it. And when shit is about to go REALLY wrong that’s also happened enough times that you get a weird feeling and just start calling everybody because your psych patient has been trying to kill you for the past week and an hour ago they suddenly stopped trying to kill you and now you have to explain to an RRT nurse (rental ICU nurse) why you’re upset that the patient isn’t trying to kill you.
Gotta love it when you come into a bit of a bitch & moan article about Tech and end up learning something new about Human Physiology and Medicine.
Cheers for that!
Another fun fact: the psychiatric term for my speech pattern (well, typing, but they’re both revealing of thought content), is “tangential!” It can be indicative of mania or psychosis but in this case it’s just ADHD so bad the neuropsychiatrist thought I was faking for drugs. They said my recent memory tests like I have dementia (sort of, mostly the rote part when they ask if you remember the random words they told you at the beginning). I’m really good at a bunch of the hands-on stuff but the EMR really saves my bacon on remembering everything.
Well, if I understood it correctly, my mother is very much like that (for example: it’s very hard to keep her on track to get to the end of a story without her getting lost of some lateral explanation about an explanation about a relativelly unimportant detail in the main story) and even I tended to work like that in the past (not so much nowadays), so your whole post for me was easy peasy to follow and a satisfying learning experience because it went into all sorts of interesting places :)
Judging by the upvotes from others, I would say I’m far from the only one.
It probably helps that here and in this post you’re basically talking about complex and interesting things to a pool of people with lots of above average intelligence, Education and/or curiosity ones.
When I was six years old, my dad brought a computer home from work. It had Windows 3.1 on it. I had to learn how to use the DOS command prompt in order to play my favorite game, Q-bert. When I was a teenager, a new computer of middling quality could run north of $3000 from the Best Buy. But my friends introduced me to a catalog where I could buy the parts to assemble one from scratch. They let me borrow their copy of Windows 95 to install. Then we all had to learn how to use dial-up in order to connect to the internet, or how to build out a LAN network to play games together in person. We took classes in touch-typing at school, using the computer lab. I went to computer camp during the summer. I went to college and took more advanced classes on programing.
I have spent tens of thousands of hours learning to use the computer, practically from the inception of the PC to the modern day.
Now my friends have kids, and I talk about how they use the computer. Everything is out-of-the-box. Installing something is as simply as clicking an icon. You can buy a mini-computer off the shelf for under $200 and it runs better than anything I could have built thirty years ago. Periodically, they will come to me with a more advanced computer program, which has to do with a very particular OS configuration or some weird networking bug that only someone with 10+ years of experience would think to look for. I typically find the answer online, because I don’t remember it off the top of my head. I teach the kid and the kid learns, and then the kid knows as much as I do on that particular subject.
In twenty years, I’m sure they’ll know more than me, just because I’ll be retired and they’ll be in the thick of it.
Also, please nobody ask me how a car works. That was something my parents’ generation learned. I’m clueless.
Since you mentioned cars, here is a theory my coworker told me that I think makes a lot of sense.
Our parents were the last generation to learn about cars because back then you needed to know how a car worked in order to own one. Cars are too simple now and you couldn’t fix one even if you wanted to since they are so locked-down.
We are the last generation to learn how computers work since we needed to know how a computer worked in order to use it. Now computers are too simple to use and you couldn’t fix one even if you wanted to since they are so locked-down.
Obviously not saying nobody today knows how cars or computers work, but it is a lot less common. Anybody who learns about cars or computers today do it because of personal interest, not because of necessity.
Cars are too simple now and you couldn’t fix one even if you wanted to since they are so locked-down.
I mean, I’d argue they’re too complex. But I agree, you need so many specialized widgets (many that vary by brand and model) that its impractical to do more than change the oil.
I was looking at a Model A on display at a dealership when I went car shopping recently. They had the engine open, and I was looking at the thing thinking “If you sent me this in a box as a ‘Build your own car’ kit, I’m pretty sure I could do it”.
Sorry I meant simple to use. Repair and maintenance is very complex. You often can not even do some maintenance since you need specialized tools or software that only mechanics have access to.
Local Area Network Network.
Sorry I couldn’t resist.
The next generation doesn’t know how to use a mouse because they do everything on the phone. And yes, I have met people like that.
“How quaint”… cracks knuckles, proceeds to type a hundred words a minute with all ten fingers on a QWERTY board.
Relevant clip from a gaming industry veteran. Kids don’t even know how to use game controllers, because they have only ever played phone or tablet games.
Most of the world doesn’t know how to use game controllers, because they’re not used outside of consoles
How old are they that don’t know how to use a mouse?
Young. It’s people that are 30-35 and younger that are not learning those skills, because they’ve never had to interact with an actual desktop/ tower.
weeps in 34 y/o
20’s
Our parents didn’t think it was important. Our kids don’t think it is necessary.
Imagine how horse farmers felt about engine maintenance on the first automobiles. Early adopters probably knew everything about how to fix tractors and cars. But today, how many people know how to change their own brakes or flush the coolant?
Life evolves, and transitions come faster with every generation. It’s good that nobody knows how to use a sextant or a fax machine.
or a fax machine
Healthcare industry is crying in the corner
My dad thought computers were important. He got me a VIC-20 soon as they came out, and that was $1,800 in today’s money, not an amount he spent lightly.
Sure, obviously there were exceptions or we wouldn’t have half the modern conveniences we do. My parents were very enthusiastic about computers, and my kids are each building their own desktops. I’m speaking in generalities.
It’s good that nobody knows how to use a sextant or a fax machine.
Modern Naval officers are taught to do navigation by starlight for backup purposes. Cause GPS ain’t that infallible.
I still know how to use a fax machine :(
It’s worse than that: we’re a small subset of the only generations that know how computers work. The vast majority of my peers would balk at using a command line, much less anything deeper.
I say generations because it’s obviously not limited to one, but, it sure as fuck isn’t many.
Yeah, the era of the ‘genius computer wiz kid’ had a small percentage of people working significantly with computers, but they were very obvious. You either knew your way around the computer very well and used it heavily, or just didn’t use a computer if you could help it.
I remember growing up the other teens would hate being forced to use a computer to type up an assignment, and would ask “can’t I just hand write it?”. We are talking about a percent or two, even among the age group, that would seriously use computers.
Now every kid uses “computers” constantly, but their level of understanding is about the same as the folks that formerly just wouldn’t bother trying back when the computers demanded you fiddle with TSRs, config.sys, autexec.bat, jumpers, dip switches to get things just right, and just right from application to application (this application demands XMS, this other demands EMS). For most kids of the era, maybe they’d use a computer with a word processing application on it, and otherwise they would play with a game console, which was far less finicky.
Between computers and navigating the stupid interface of VCRs of the time, you had TV shows pick up on the whiz kid as a meme (Wesley Crusher in TNG, Lucas Wolenczak in SeaQuest, so many sitcoms of the time would have one…). However they weren’t the prolific folks. Most kids of the time didn’t have time for computers (which also commonly showed up in the sitcoms, the cool jock would have the nerd whiz kid pull some stuff for him, because he sure couldn’t be bothered to deal with computers).
Not only that, but co-workers from my own generation also don’t know how to fix their own computers, so I’m just surrounded by people that have no idea how any of it works.
I think that’s the real crux of it. Most people don’t know. There may have been a bump in literacy, but most people don’t know, don’t care, and don’t need to. If we had better education, this kind of thing could be a core class. I had computer classes, but they mainly focused on typing and specific programs. Basically nothing about components, the command prompt, programming, different OS, etc. Granted this was many years ago, but I live in Florida. So, it’s probably worse.
My dad can write DOS commands better than most people my age can and I work in Tech. beyond that? he’s clueless. Younger generations can either type with their thumbs or their index fingers and know absolutely nothing about how things work. If it’s an app they can open on their phones or tablet devices then perfect, they’re all over it. Beyond that? no way.
People my age and from my generation can type well, can figure things out and fix issues on computers, and know our way around tech. Why? cause we were raised in an age where things were essentially “kicking off”. I was taught typing in high school. Beyond that most of us used AIM, ICQ, MSN Messenger, mIRC, etc so if we weren’t taught it in high school we learned it that way.
We learned html, php, javascript, etc via Geocities, setting up PHP messageboards, hell even just customizing our Myspace page. younger generations don’t have anything like that so they don’t know it. We learned it in our free time to customize our online experience. We had daily consistent shows like The ScreenSavers or Call for Help to teach us how to use Windows or even introduce us to Linux. I learned to build my first PC thanks to Leo Laporte and Patrick Norton. countless magazines and books to pick up to read how to do stuff. And in those days if you wanted to game on PC you pretty much had to build your own PC. No one made prebuilt custom gaming pcs. So you had to learn that stuff.
Today things are all prebuilt for you. gaming pcs, phones and tablet apps, etc. People today just want things to “just work” and if there’s anything needed beyond opening an app and logining in then they’re not interested. Finding and signing up for instances? forget it.
I love Leo and Patrick. I think Leo is still doing The New ScreenSavers and Patrick is off doing an AV podcast last I checked. I miss their shows on rev3 too
I suspect that back in the day there was a generation that were “the only ones who knew how cars worked” (in that it had a far higher number of people who could do their own car repairs).
It’s the product of having grown up in a time when that technology was going from niche to widespread - a time when its still clunky, fickle and needs a lot of babysitting and before it was mainly made “so simple that any idiot can use it” - so if you were one of those people who got into it back then, you were forced to understand it more in depth merely to keep it going. Those who grew up before that simply never became familiar with it, whilst those who grew up later only ever had to understand how to the mature-stage user interfaces of that Tech, which are designed for maximum accessibility with minimum learning curve (which amongst other things means minimizing the need for deep understanding of what’s going on) and did not need to know how to maintain it since “maintenance” had by then become “get a new one and click this button to migrate your info”.
You can see a similar thing going on with 3D printers: earlier models are fickle and need all sorts of tweaks and understanding of what’s going on to get decent prints out of them plus required frequent maintenance (amongst other things, you quite literally have to periodically retighten the screws of whatever kit FDM printer you got otherwise print quality worsens over time) whilst the later consumer-oriented products make everything simpler.
I’m glad that many kids are into PC gaming, at least. That’s still a decent vector into computer proficiency and a little hardware knowledge.
I’m not sure how many kids will be into PC gaming when a low end Nvidia gpu is currently $550. I know that everything comes pre overclocked, and the 4070s still a good card even though it’s got a low and die in it it’s just depressing in the principle of it.
Maybe things like the steam deck will push kids into Linux since the mid-range gaming desktop is like two grand now.
I built a decent rig at the time 2 years ago for a 10 year old for less than 600€. Sure, some parts were used and it’s obviously no monster but he’s still using it daily. He’s learning how to upgrade it every time I have money for it, too.
You don’t have to buy all new Nvidia GPUs for $550 a piece to play games, ya know?
Yeah my first gaming pc was like…a crappy HP desktop with an Nvidia 6600 that I plugged in. Worked great for Age of Mythology lol
I made sure our kids got introduced to PC gaming. It sort of worked, they are more adept with windows then thier peers, but 0/3 have used thier shell accounts. They were into the persistent Minecraft server for a minute, but barely learned any console commands.
Sadly if most computers weren’t ‘walled garden’ experiences then maybe the kids could learn to tinker and fix them. As it is if the issue can’t be fixed from a settings app then they’re stuck.
Hey remember when computers become essential to day to day life and schools started making it part of their curriculum? Yeah me neither.
For gen x and millennials, they got those skills for free cause their toys incentivized them. As in we got that for free.
It was never guaranteed for that to keep being true. And giving you basic knowledge for the world is usually what schools should do but they never did cause there is money to be made with dumbed down tools.
your kids will be fixing your 3D holographic projection glasses or some shit like that dont worry
