Abstaining or voting 3rd party to “make Dems listen” doesn’t work. If anyone thinks they can play Mexican Standoff, you can’t because the Dems have an out: the center voter. Every time they lose, they go to the center to find voters.
And remember they need all 3 of presidency, house of representatives, and senate to pass pretty much anything. If they don’t have all 3 they will go to the center to find voters. Some people call this rachet effect, but really they’re looking for voters. Want them to stop ‘racheting’? Then give them consistent and overwhelming victories.
so you think if we vote for them no matter what they do, they will start representing our wishes out of the goodness of their hearts, instead of Aipac’s who come to them with palletloads of cash? Thats… an interesting theory.
First, again, they go to the center when they lose. If they don’t lose, they don’t need to go to the center to find voters.
Second: They will do what
peoplevoters want. That is the whole point, voters. Right now the voters are voting for brutally slow progress. That’s what they get when they give Dems control of all 3 for only 4 years every 24 years. Want faster progress? Then be the voters that vote for faster progress by giving Dems consistent and overwhelming victories.In addition to that, I really think Dems want left policy. They do it when they can despite it costing them elections. According to your logic they would never have done the ACA, or green energy, or EVs, or union empowerment (inb4), or student debt forgiveness, or Chips act, or Pact act, etc, etc. But they did, and it cost them.
And remember they need all 3 of presidency, house of representatives, and senate to pass pretty much anything
The odds of Democrats keeping the Senate seem dismal. So it sounds like we’re giving the party license to do nothing for another two years
I like how you twist that to “party license”. If the
peoplevoters vote that way, that is the will of thepeoplevoters. Don’t like it? Vote. For Dems. (Though the GOP bear some responsibility being obstructionist pos.)If the
peoplevoters vote that way, that is the will of thepeoplevoters.Sorry 50M Californians, but 40k West Virginians decided to go a different way. Guess this means no civil rights for another two years.
This is aimed at those people that think not voting or voting 3rd party is effective to “make Dems listen”. It is not. Voters have a say.
Dems are a coalition. Centrists are not powerful enough within that coalition to act like utterly unaccountable god-kings. If that needs to be beaten into them then so be it.
Lol I assume you mean that you (the leftist) will beat some message into the Dems. Dude, you will not win this Mexican Standoff because the Dems have an out: The center voter. Who, wait for it, actually shows up.
Alll your “beating” is beating yourself when you hand the overton window over to the GOP. It’s the biggest self own in history.
We’ll see wont we. If progressives stay strong and dont vote early, I’d bet real money Harris caves on the weapons shipments.
So give up? Yea, it fucking sucks and is unfair as hell but voting is too easy to claim a lack motivation. It’s not a sustained effort, it’s something happens incredibly rarely and you can definitely handle. You can even mail that shit in in most places.
If you vote then it will be hard for the democrats to win and start shifting your countries policies to leftward(even if it’s an inch at a time). If you don’t vote then it will be impossible to do it.
So give up?
If your full effort begins and ends with election season, you’ve already given up.
Who said that? Oh right, nobody. Fuck, bro, get it together.
And in their trips to the centre they keep seeming to forget that they keep shifting further and further right
Centrists are a curse here
They. Are. Looking. For. Voters.
If the
peoplevoters want more right, then that’s the will of thepeoplevoters. Thus the message: If you, as a leftist, want them to go left then you have to vote for Dems.They. Are. Looking. For. Voters.
Thats. Not. What.They. Are. Doing. At All. Progressive votes and the election win are right there for the taking. All the centrists need to do is stop shipping those weapons. Im not even demanding that Kamala stop pushing fracking and gun proliferation thats murdering our children. Progressives are bending over backwards to try to make this work and they are being offered exactly nothing except threats,condescenscion, far right policies, and hostage taking talk by the centrists.
Progressive votes never show up. Anyone else can see my comment https://lemmy.world/comment/12867004. You’d be an absolute fool to cater to or rely on the left showing up. Because. They. Never. Show. Up. The only time Dems win is when they go to the center.
Wow another message from you. Dude, I have 6 messages all from you.
Thats pretty rich coming from you. Almost every other comment on this thread is you. “Dude”.
Why yes I made a top level comment to the post and I am responding to people that reply to me. That is not what you portray it as, so that tells me you’re here in horribly bad faith. Ciao.
This is exactly why we need ranked choice voting.
Winner takes all essentially demoralizes and alienates voters and drives people who agree with each other to fight because they’re trapped in a broken system.
So instead of fighting the system, it’s easier to just blame other people and alienate more of them against your cause, shooting yourself in the foot with ignorance. It’s kind of disgusting.
How would we get ranked choice passed using the current two party system though? I can’t imagine politicians voting to give up power in that way.
Not an American, but yikes does this have “Vote with us… Or else!” vibes.
That’s not to say I support Trump, but I personally don’t think this is the way to convince fence-sitters at all.
But it’s literally how it works in the USA with voting. It shouldn’t, but it DOES.
I dont see that it is “working”.
I mean, yeah? Have you looked around? The or else is getting pretty bad.
Also I want to keep adding it’s not just Trump, he’s just a pawn. This is Republicans, not Trump. If row did anything hopefully it opened up some eyes to realize they have been on message for a long damn time. Dems should take note.
It’s exactly the kind of thing that feels good to say, but doesn’t convince anyone at all. Which is why Republicans keep winning despite ideas that should be extremely unpopular. They tie themselves to emotions about masculinity and patriotism and paint the other side as a source of disgust and fear. While Democrats look at people who support or don’t seem eager to stop Trump and say angry things at them, which just makes them not want to help Demcorats.
The “I’m voting, are you?” argument featuring nutty alt-right Maga crazies is far better because it says “hey, you can help stop this nutjob.”
How else would you propose that the Overton Window shift to the left?
The American neoliberal experiment started in 1992 when Bill Clinton was president…
The prior (edit: Dem, obviously) president was Jimmy Fuckin Carter…
How do you think the Overton Window has moved since Carter?
We can’t afford to keep going with a strategy that clearly hasn’t worked for 30+ years…
you are 100% correct, and I’m glad to see you speaking up here as well.
these kind of posts are disgusting pablum and should be discouraged.
Can confirm, these awful false-equivalences have only further convinced me that liberals will never lift a finger to help anyone.
The really bad part is when you see how they react when people point out Kamala moving to the left would guarantee trump loses…
Moderates have been doing this since Bill Clinton 30+ years ago.
They always claim nothing else matters but beating Republicans, and use any excuse to move the party right. When voters complain the politician doesn’t match the party, we get the above.
They’d rather trump win then progressives, so they point a gun at everyone’s head and say it’s our fault if they have to pull the trigger.
Hell, in 08 with Obama they did pull the trigger. PUMA movement had them voting R instead of Obama. It’s just despite controlling the party, they are a statistically insignificant amount of voters.
A few months ago all these people called us trump supporters for making the (still true) statement that Kamala has a better chance than Biden, and they were all saying Kamala would be a terrible candidate and only Biden can win.
They’ll say anything in the moment with no regards to what just came out of their mouths.
The “or else” is you will be remembered as the Trump supporter that you are. That’s not a threat.
Yes, I understand the sentiment. But the tone is off. Sounding like fascists or Marxist Leninist should be the last thing anyone should be aiming for.
More people should be aiming to be Marxists, don’t know why you’re trying to draw an equivalence between Marxists and fascists that doesn’t exist. You should read Blackshirts and Reds, Communists and fascists have served entirely different classes, the fascists served the bourgeoisie while the Marxists served the proletariat, and funded anti-colonial and anti-Imperialist movements the world over (including funding the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine).
Unrelated to the message - that’s a bad use of the meme, doesn’t fit at all.
I’ll vote Dem, but I am ashamed beyond measure of the Dem party. Despite the public doing all they can to stop Trump, the actual candidates running against Trump are sitting on their asses and refusing to take serious action. This “Blue Wave” is not approval FOR Harris-Walz, but rather DISAPPROVAL for Trump. Dems are ultimately more responsible for fascism in the U.S. than their voters.
All in all, the entire United States Government is at fault. This is just one reason why I want an independent Cascadia.
It’s sadly the same story in the UK the public are sick and tired of the Tory’s bullshit. Unfortunately the Labour Party has never been soo right wing. Normally they they wouldn’t have have stood a chance on such an authoritarian, uninspiring manifesto but here we are. The cynicism of the people in charge of the Labour Party stinks to high heaven. They fucked the party while the left were in charge then purged them when they retook control. I’ll be lucky to still be about by the time the left ever get control again.
Canada is setup to have a Conservative majority after the Liberals utterly ruined everything for 2 and a bit terms. The Liberals are a centre-right party that campaigns as a centre-left party and it has caused a huge rightward-drift.
We’re pretty screwed because somehow people think the solution to unaffordable housing and whole industries being captured by oligarchs is austerity.
The things that gets under my skin the most are: the contempt they have for much of the populace; their habitual dishonesty; holding power is more important than achieving any measurable good; their apparent philosophy seems to be gradually increasing inequality; their toxic attitude to anyone to their left.
Harris will hold any announcement of dropping weapons shipments to israel till the very last day to see if the polls tell her she will get away with supporting the genocide and still winning the election. The more doubts she has, the more she might flip. So might as well hold your vote till the last second and play out this game of chicken.
As non-american I agree you guys should definitely vote Harris, despite Dems being terrible Trump would absolutely be worse on each topic Dems are bad. That being said, rethoric of this post is straight up facist. Using threats of personal consequences for “wrongly” exercising ones right to vote is wild.
It’s not a threat, dumbass. It’s a warning. There will be personal consequences, but they’ll be perpetrated by the MAGAs. And we will blame you guys.
It sounded like a treat with the very personal “we” and “you”. But calling it fascist is a bit too much. Fascism is a right wing mass movement for when capitalism goes down hill (usually blaming some minority for it), so it should support capitalism in it essence. I didn’t get any of that from this meme.
From wikipedia:
Fascism a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
While it definitely describes Republican party as a whole, I specifically mentioned rethoric as being fascist, as in, one fascists would use. In this case I made a reference to “subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race” part as well, to lesser degree, to “forcible suppression of opposition” as threats can be seen as such. For rethoric to be pro-something it doesn’t need to encapsulate all aspects of said thing, for example you can see pro-leftist rethoric mentioning workplace democracy and not including being against opression of miniorities. “Education should be free” is a leftist rethoric despite not mentioning trans genocide.
It definitely could be a right wing psy op, as someone mentioned. Dems are way too meek to go that far imo.
it’s not fascist. if it was an official comment from Harris , THEN it would be fascist.
this is a person whose intent is solely interested in pointing out that society is watching what all the fascist supporting shit-stains do.
just like this: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/ohio-sheriff-suggests-residents-keep-list-harris-yard-sign-addresses-rcna171385
BTW, since he’s an elected official that makes him a fascist too.
citizens cannot be a fascist unless they’re in a position of political power, but they can be the little shit-heels the fascists employ. just like the Jewish Ghetto Police in WWII.
remember, movements can be fascist. electable officials can be fascist. but regular people are just shitheads.
Very braindead take in every sense
I literally said that the rethoric was fascist, not person. Fascism is an ideology as well as movement, and people regardless of political power they hold can follow a ideology, so even if I wasn’t referring to rethoric it would still be viable to call someone a fascist - not that it should be done on the basis of single shitty meme. If you believe that communism is the best political system there is, then you are a communist. If you give examples and advocate for this system, then you’re most likely using rethoric that is recognizeably communist, as in, it conveys the message favourable for communism. I’ve already outlined why the message coming from the post is fascist in my oryginal comment. Your claim that one requires a degree of political power in order to be identified by the ideology they believe in would be invalid in terms of USA politics even if it was true - since USA citizens have the right to vote for whomever they want (which the OP tried to restrain with the use of threats) they do hold actual political power and influence, regardless how small it is. I’ve already explained in more details how the rethoric itself was fascist in another comment, referring to the definition and all that. Also, dancing around the definition to whitewash the condemned action is really pointless unless you’re trying to intentionally muddy the water. Convincing people to vote for specific candidate with threats of them being ousted for not doing that is directly what both Mussolini and Hitler did. Mussolini used that tactic in parliamentary elections in 1924, and Sturmabteilung did that in 1932, keeping watch by the pooling stations and threatening voters. Those people absolutely were fascists by any modern definition, and used this rethoric to achieve the same result as one that was intended here. If that isn’t enough red flags for you to call this rethoric fascist, then I don’t think there is enough common ground between our positions to engage in reasonable discussion.
Negging is a normal and effective way to pursuade people. Things must be going great for you.
No, the blame lies squarely on the DNC for deliberately ignoring the loud and clear message from third party voters that genocide is a red line in the sand. The blame further lies with the liberals supporting a decaying Empire and never lifting a finger to help anyone, just showing up at the ballot box every 4 years while the US commits manmade horrors beyond comprehension.
Join an org, like the Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL) or Freedom Road Socialist Organization (FRSO), this mess can’t be undone by supporting the Dems harder.
Unfortunately, it’s not a “red line in the sand,” no matter how much you keep repeating it. While a majority of people in the US disapprove of Israel’s actions, a tiny fraction of voters (less than 2%) consider it their primary voting issue, an even smaller fraction of that number would consider withholding their vote or voting third party over it.
While you may not like it, it’s not the major concern for American voters. If you’d like to withhold your vote or vote third party about it, be my guest. The only likely scenario that would result from that would helping Trump get elected. If you’re honestly concerned about Palestinians, you’d be wise enough to not enable an even worse situation for them. There’s a reason Israel’s leadership wants Trump to win and encourages the left to revolt about Palestine.
You’re getting played by Israel, who is using your short-sighted feels to enable them to enact long-term reals, which in their case might very well be the full extermination and displacement of all of Palestine. To truly bring that into being, they, at they very least, need Trump to win. Fundamentally you are siding with Israel over Palestinians, and the immediate sense of moral superiority you feel about it is precisely how you’re being manipulated.
Read your history. Using the left’s lack of political pragmatism to aid in hard-right political takeover isn’t new. Your Bush-ist “you’re either with us or against us” simplification of the world and political calculus makes you an easy mark. You are, quite literally, a tool of Israel at this point.
And the best part, from Israel’s point of view, is you get to feel good about it. Win-win (for Israel). You’re trying to march Palestine right into the grave while telling them you’re helping them the whole way.
It’s a red line in the sand if voters make it so.
Secondly, the idea that Israel is depending on the Repblicans winning is hilarious. Biden has given them everything they want, including approving the Lebanon invasion. The genocide is bipartisan.
I think you’re going to by sadly surprised about how bad things can get. The limits of your long-term imagination and the narrowed view upon which you prevail are a little surprising. But, then again, you’re literally helping the Israeli state, so maybe I shouldn’t be surprised.
You’re signing off on everything the US Empire and Israel wants, what’s surprising is that you can’t see that.
Whatever helps you sleep better at night while you help Israel commit genocide.
Whatever helps you sleep better at night while you help Israel commit genocide.
You’ve reached the “I know you are but what am I” level of childishness. That speaks volumes.
WoahWoah, If you truly beleive in minimizing the murder of the Palestinians, why isnt pressuring Harris to change her policy position something you’ll support? Why get on here and trashtalk progressives into letting Harris have her cake and eat it too?
you’re a fool or a Russian propagandist.
this election will make waves of change across the world.
to anyone taking this fool seriously I’ll ask you this, where was your conscience when the Uighur people were enslaved.
where was your conscience when Iran was killing woman for standing up for their rights?
where was your conscience when Russia was killing gay men just for being gay?
where was your conscience when North Korea was starving and killing its people?
why didn’t America intervene then? why didn’t you vote your conscience then?
by listening to propaganda like above, you’re not voting your conscience, you’re voting for whatever the propagandists tell you to vote for.
vote to save democracy because we’ve only got the one, and there won’t be a second chance.
Theres a big difference between aiding a genocide vs not showing up to stop one. Are you pretending we are merely being neutral in this Israeli genocide? Thats absurd at best and dishonest at worst.
Progressives are asking for the weapons shipments to stop, and Harris gets the votes to win.
ok, I suppose you don’t support the Uighur genocides by not purchasing any goods in the world market? I mean, if you DO then that would just make you a hypocrite, right?
genocide is genocide. the Uighur genocide has been thoroughly documented and has been going on for about…15 years now? they only started forcing them into internment camps since 2017 though. which reminds me.
where was the outrage when Trump was running in 2016? where was the outrage while he was in office? where was the outrage when Trump continued to do nothing to help those poor Uighur slaves?
did you know that in China you can literally buy organs from Uighur slaves against their will? they’re trafficked as sex slaves, they’re beaten, they’re forced to work to their death, they are murdered just for existing.
so where has all the outrage been for 7 years? oh wait…I get it, it’s too inconvenient because it doesn’t progress the story you want to push.
so I’ll ask more bluntly this time, why is it ok for China to have a genocide and not Israel? is it because they aren’t the right Muslims? or is it because it doesn’t fit the narrative you’re pushing?
Progressives aren’t asking the Dems to commit to even trying to stop the genocide. Progressives are asking Dems to stop actively facilitating and arguably participating in it.
you’re just moving the goal posts again.
tell me why it’s ok for China to genocide the Uighur muslims and it’s not ok for Israel to genocide Hamas muslims?
where is the outrage for allowing e-retailers like Temu, Wish, or Shein to operate within the US? where is the outrage for these companies using forced Uighur slave labor to manufacture their products?
what about the slave labor that places like Apple use to manufacture their products?
all you have to do is answer the question.
Why do Hamas Muslims matter more than Uighur Muslims right now?
I’m not moving any goalposts. Your entire argument assumes that the US is providing military aid to China, knowing that said aid is used to commit genocide. They aren’t.
Your use of the term “Hamas Muslims,” however, is very telling.
what a weak scarecrow. just because Hamas is the brotherhood doesn’t mean you can’t identify them as Muslim. that’s exactly why Israel is attacking them in the first place, right? that makes it relevant to the question that you refuse to answer.
The US aids the Chinese genocide of Uighur Muslims by allowing their economic participation in western markets with products and services manufactured and supported by Uighur slave labor.
how is that any different than supporting Israeli attacks on Hamas Muslims?
but don’t worry, I’ll ask again.
Why do Hamas Muslims matter more than Uighur Muslims, right now?
I’ll take a guess to the answer since nobody has the nerve to admit it.
Uighur Muslim persecution is convenient to popularist notion of high yield and cheap products. the labor they provide supports Chinese interests and provides highly scalable resources for their war machine. the same machine that directly benefits Russia and the ongoing struggle for power that Putin and Xi are attempting to destroy the world over.
By implying Americans should reject democrats and republicans based on their inaction on the atrocities committed by Israel it only serves to support the goals set forward by the Russian and Chinese dictatorships. not to influence the 2024 election, but to sow the seeds of confusion and inspire mistrust in the America system of government.
you said it yourself.
Progressives aren’t asking the Dems to commit to even trying to stop the genocide. Progressives are asking Dems to stop actively facilitating and arguably participating in it.
“progressives” don’t want anyone to participate in a system they deem not acceptable enough. – moving the goal posts
“progressives” want Americans to pivot to any third party candidate in protest against the American government. – manufacturing chaos
“progressives” want Americans to believe that a system they alone can’t change is corrupted and should be dismantled. – sowing the seeds of mistrust
if you’re not a tool that’s being used to support the Russian and Chinese agenda, you’re a fool drinking the koolaid.
Have you ever wondered what thoughts must go through a person’s mind after making just the worst decision in their lives? Like a father who fell asleep at the wheel because he didn’t want to stop at a motel to save a few bucks, and now he’s in the ICU watching his wife and child slowly dying in front of him?
That’s gonna be you if Trump gets elected. Good luck with that.
Your idea of the “worst decision of their lives” is forced on Palestinians daily because of the party you support.
deleted by creator
And every four fucking years of my entire voting lifetime is an influx of ignorant pseudo-intellectual blowhard nonsense about third parties that- similar to their devoted followers…. don’t do jack shit between elections.
I want to go live with the fucking socialist Linux penguins in Antarctica.
Please do.
Show me on the doll where the green party hurt you.
2000 Presidential Election, Florida
GEORGE W. BUSH: 2,912,790 votes
AL GORE: 2,912,253 votes
RALPH GREEN PARTY NADER: 97,488 votes
That’s where the Green Party gave us Bush, Cheney and the Neo-cons. Thanks for playing.
You’re implying the green voters would have voted for Al Gore.
That’s like blaming January 6th on Bernie.
Neat!
Did you ask the person I responded to to show on your little doll where the liberals hurt them?
Because in a perfect little make-believe socialist society, we’re ALL equal, right?
So show that equality! Come on now. Don’t be shy. Be the change you want to see!!!
In was just poking fun at you clearly referencing the green party but calling it all third parties.
Im pretty sure I reference third parties. Period.
Okay so I was being a dick about it. I disagree, there are third parties on my States ballot that do work on local elections.
Fair enough.
deleted by creator
The harsh reality is that leftists, in their outrage over Gaza, are being manipulated to serve the very forces they claim to oppose. Netanyahu, with the same calculated cynicism as Putin, is using this moment of crisis to bolster his own political survival by helping Trump’s re-election bid. AIPAC, already firmly in the Republican camp, is actively working to secure Trump’s victory, just like the leftists—though they may wear different masks. At the core, both groups are contributing to the same outcome: Trump back in power, where Netanyahu and his far-right allies can continue their genocidal wars unchecked.
Leftists may express moral indignation and feel superior in their righteous anger, but at the end of the day, they are playing right into the hands of Netanyahu, Trump, and Putin. They are weakening Kamala Harris, who has a precarious balancing act between Jewish and Arab-American voters, and ensuring that Trump and his cronies can capitalize on this division. Despite their different emotional reactions along the way, both AIPAC and the leftist protesters are on the same side when it comes to the pragmatic analysis: they’re both paving the way for Trump’s return to power. And that’s all the Republicans, Netanyahu, and Putin truly care about—using anyone, even their critics, to achieve their goals.
It’s deeply ironic that a group that prides itself on its materialist analysis can’t seem to distinguish between what they think they’re fighting for and what they’re actually enabling. They claim to oppose imperialism and oppression, yet their actions are directly aligning with the interests of Netanyahu, Trump, and their right-wing allies. For all their talk of understanding power dynamics, they’re blind to the fact that they’re advancing the very agenda they claim to detest.
Or, you know, Kamala could just come out and denounce the Israeli Genocide.
This oft repeated spin straight out of the Political Propaganda 101 book that it’s all the lefties’ fault for not supporting the Democrat Party whilst their leaders unwaveringly support what is well on its way to become the 21st Century Holocaust rather than it being the fault of the Democrat Party leaders for unwaveringly support what is well on its way to become the 21st Century Holocaust hence they risk losing leftie votes, would be hilarious if it wasn’t such an obvious insult to the intelligence of most people.
That the argument always boils down to “these very important people can do whatever the fuck they want no matter how evil and any consequences of that will be the plebes’ fault since should have supporting them” (the kind of “logic” an abuser uses) betrays the tribalism hypocrisy that it really is (hence its obvious subservient mindset) rather than the well intentioned advice it tries to pass itself as.
If the objective was truly and only to Stop Trump, the everybody would be equally pushing for it, but apparently it’s not as the Democrat Party leadership refuses to stop supporting what’s the biggest evil in this century (so far) and instead send their minions around to parrot the abuser’s Book Of It’s Your Fault You Made Me Do It claiming that the fault for the consequences of the choices the Democrat Party leaders is really of everybody else but them.
This response reeks of naive idealism wrapped in self-righteous moralizing. It’s easy to demand that Kamala Harris “denounce genocide” as though it’s a magic wand that will instantly change the geopolitical landscape, let alone the electoral map. To put it bluntly, if she does that, she will almost certainly lose the election. Would that it weren’t the case, but the world (and the United States) doesn’t work that way, and acting like it does betrays a complete lack of understanding of realpolitik. The Democrats are navigating a complex minefield of domestic and international pressures, and while you sit on the sidelines demanding moral purity, your actions are doing nothing but helping the very forces—Trump, Netanyahu, and the far-right—that thrive on division.
Claiming that it’s somehow more virtuous to tear down Harris for not meeting your purity test while ignoring the consequences of a Trump re-election is either willfully ignorant or disturbingly reckless. You cast aside the actual stakes—continued authoritarianism, eroded democratic institutions, and worsening conflict—because you’re too blinded by your own self-congratulatory sense of moral superiority. If the goal really is to stop genocide and halt far-right imperialism, then, no matter how you cut it, your tactical ignorance is making you an unwitting ally to the very people perpetuating it.
This response reeks of naive idealism wrapped in self-righteous moralizing. It’s easy to demand that Kamala Harris “denounce genocide” as though it’s a magic wand that will instantly change the geopolitical landscape, let alone the electoral map. To put it bluntly, if she does that, she will almost certainly lose the election.
That utter nonsense. If she stops the shipments she gets progressive votes. And she wont get nearly from the “center” gun nuts and frackers. The only options she has are to wait and see if she magically gets the numbers somehow, or flip halfway on the genocide issue and stop the shipments. She doesnt even need to go to the palestinian side, she just needs to stop the shipments and the outrage on the AIPAC side will make it look like she made some firm stand. She just needs to give a tiny smidgeon. Or she loses.
If she stops the shipments she gets progressive votes.
Bullshit, y’all get played like a fucking fiddle every time by Putin and Netanyahu. If it wasn’t Gaza, it would be something else. Harris will never get your votes, best we can hope for is you to shut up and stop influencing the low-information voters.
You need read up on what progressives even are so you dont embarass yourself further. You clearly dont understand the basics of what you are talking about. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/types-democrats-republicans-house-2024/
And you can save any further comment, I’ll be blocking you after this. I will argue with people who people who have differing ideas, but not with people who dont even know what they are talking about and are spewing nonsense.
In addition to intentionally conflating liberals and neoliberals, you bastards are also conflating Leftists with progressives, and that’s just fucking offensive.
I am a progressive. You are not. Trade on your own reputation instead of trying to hitch yourself to ours.
Is it really so hard to believe that genocide might be a big deal for some voters? You know some of these people know or are related to those being killed right? What would you tell them? Its not that important?
I’d tell them they’re being duped by people harnessing their anger.
And to follow up, let’s cut through the noise: the actual revolutionaries are not on the left anymore—they’re on the right. While leftists sit in their echo chambers, recycling the same tired rhetoric about the “deep state,” “holocaust,” “seizing the means of production,” or the “oppressive system,” the right is using that very system to achieve real, tangible victories. You know, that whole “praxis” thing you’ve only ever read about. You call out the “deep state” in theory, but the right is actively bending it to their will, infiltrating and reshaping institutions while you’re busy hashtagging your outrage. You talk about class struggle, but the right is recruiting the working class and mobilizing them into a political force while you alienate them with performative virtue-signaling and elitist condescension.
Decentralized organizing? The right has mastered it. You talk about decentralized resistance, but they’re doing it with militias, grassroots movements, and local networks that bypass traditional power structures. You fantasize about armed resistance, but they’re the ones arming up and preparing for real-world conflict while you rage from behind your keyboard. They’ve taken leftist tactics and have weaponized them effectively—moving the political discourse to their advantage, recruiting new members, and pushing their radical politicians into the mainstream. Trump? SCOTUS? They didn’t come out of nowhere—they’re the result of decades of long-term grassroots organizing by the right that you probably mocked, dismissed, or ignored. Now they’re reshaping the entire political landscape, and you’re too busy whining on social media to see it and too busy applying purity tests to everyone and everything to stop it.
The so-called revolutionaries on the left, with their gaming-chair activism and social media campaigns, think they’re going to change the world with retweets, downvotes, and think pieces. Meanwhile, the right is out there in the real world, moving mountains while you move Lemmy posts. The so-called left is getting beat—badly. And the worst part? You don’t even seem to notice. It’s both incredibly sad and very frustrating. There’s a real revolution happening, but it’s not yours. The left are not the ones changing the world—they’re the ones losing it. And anyone trying to find ways to blunt the tips or create a tactical opening you dismiss from your self-constructed throne of high-morality. How’s the weather up there on your high horse anyway?
When the left tries to organize to effect change:
Chalking Bans and ID Checks at Protests Repress Palestine Solidarity on Campus
There’s a reason the right has no problem organizing. It is tolerated, and condoned. Why?
Because it infiltrated the system and gained power from within, a prospect that for some reason horrifies leftists. Even though that is the only way to achieve your goals.
It didn’t infiltrate the system. It is the system.
It is now. The tea party started as an outside movement.
Okay boomer.
And this level of intelligence is allowed to vote. We’re doomed.
I love how in the US getting Hitler elected would just be a matter of having a total of one worse person run for president. Then the Dems would be selling him as the saviour of the working class and minorities.
“What? Third party? You might as well be voting for Hitl… Wait”
Yeah. But that’s not them doing anything wrong lol.
It’s the system. You have a electoral college majority vote system that only allows two parties because a third party would split the vote. As long as you have that one, it’s literally impossible for any third candidate to win, so it will just remove votes for the better option of the real possible one.
Of course this is horrible and of course no-one likes it. But you have to change the underlying system in order to really get a viable alternative.
Just saying “the system is bad (it is!!) so I won’t follow its rules and waste my vote” won’t help anybody. It will just allow the even worse option to flourish.
How did Ross Perot run then? Clearly the System will allow for a third party it’s the people who have decided that they can’t.
I’ll take “People arguing with comments they didn’t understand” for $500, Alex.
Ross Perot did literally get zero electoral college votes. Any vote given to him was an absolutely wasted vote.
It’s funny that the Nazi Party was literally the National Socialist Party Of The German Worker.
Of course they were neither Socialist (quite the opposite) nor stood for workers (quite the opposite).
I describe it as “funny” because in the US, the Democrats, whose President has literary said he is a Zionist (I.e. a supporter of the latest variant of the Nazi ideology) operate almost entirely based on the very same principle of claiming to be one thing whilst acting as the opposite.
The very field that allowed Trump to rise with his hypocrite populist speech has long been plowed and fertilized by Democrats relying on sleazy lies and half-truths and turning the Press into their Propaganda Spokesperson to get away with representing their voters less and less: people stopped trusting a certain kind of slick stories and a certain Press promoting misleading statements and deceitful portrayals in a serious tone, which openned the door for the actors politicians doing populist strongmen acts and spewing outright but short and simple lies.
Today’s American Political Landscape is a field plowed and sowed by Democrats and harvested by Republicans.
The old “if you’re not with us then you’re against us” position. How about the dems adopt policies that inspire people to vote for them.
Dumbest hot takes on the Internet be like:
Posters like this always assume that their candidate is the other option if the person doesn’t abstain or vote 3rd party.
Funny, Republicans are saying the same thing the other way around. I hope both parties die out fast.
Both sides saying the other will destroy us. The parallels go way farther than anyone is willing to admit. Voting for the “lesser evil” has only led us to this two party system where substance is lost. It is impossible to vote objectively (I always vote) and expect less than regression. My state has become a haven for one side with over a million people moving to this state for political reasons.
I can vote Republican to pretend like things are better while not changing, or getting worse. Or I can vote Democrat to pretend like they aren’t going to approve everything Republicans want anyways. Or I can vote for the best candidate who has no chance to win but I have a semblance of pride while the election is predictable in my district and state anyways. Yet I have to not share who I voted for because I will be blamed by both sides for their own engineered and predictable failures.
I am going to get a lot of hate on here for being honest about the situation. I no longer care about that. No I am not a plant from Russia or one of the parties. And, yes I do believe those entities are really helping the division, pushing false narratives and mal-information. However, I do not blame them for the problems. The problems have been engineered from within our own borders. That is a whole other topic with volumes of evidence and books.
We the people have been made ignorant and angry. I don’t know how we can recover from this, but I know life is going to suck, no matter who is elected president next month. It WILL only “get worse for working class Americans, minorities and women.” And I have no clue how or when it will end. Everytime there is progress and opportunity, there are Americans turning against it while using it for self destruction. I feel horrible for the generations inheriting our chaos and possible destruction.
