Cultural appropriation is a broad enough term to functionally be meaningless, but I’ve found it helpful to think through 4 distinct interests at play, that I think are legitimate:
Proper attribution/credit. We don’t like plagiarism or unattributed copying in most art. Remixes, homages, reinterpretations, and even satire/parody are acceptable but we expect proper treatment of the original author and the original work. Some accusations of cultural appropriation take on this flavor, where there’s a perceived unfairness in how the originator of an idea is ignored and some copier is given credit. For a real world example of this, think of the times the fans of a particular musical artist get annoyed when a cover of one of that artist’s song becomes bigger than the original.
Proper labeling/consumer disclosure/trademark. Some people don’t like taking an established name and applying it outside of that original context. European nations can be pretty aggressive at preserving the names of certain wines (champagne versus sparkling wine) or cheeses (parmigiano reggiano versus parmesan) or other products. American producers are less aggressive about those types of geographic protected labels but have a much more aggressive system of trademarks generally: Coca Cola, Nike, Starbucks. In a sense, there’s literal ownership of a name and the owner should be entitled to decide what does or doesn’t get the label.
Cheapening of something special or disrespect for something sacred. For certain types of ceremonial clothing, wearing that clothing outside of the context of that ceremony seems disrespectful. Military types sometimes get offended by stolen valor when people wear ranks/ribbons/uniforms they haven’t personally earned, and want to gatekeep who gets to wear those things. In Wedding Crashers there’s a scene where Will Ferrell puts on a fake purple heart to try to get laid, and it’s widely understood by the audience to be a scummy move. Or, one could imagine the backlash if someone were to host some kind of drinking contest styled after some Christian communion rituals, complete with a host wearing stuff that looks like clergy attire.
Mockery of a group. Blackface, fake accents, and things of that nature are often in bad taste when used to mock people. It’s hard to pull this off without a lot of people catching strays, so it’s best to just avoid these practices. With costumes in general, there are things to look out for, especially if you’re going out and getting smashed.
I might suggest a fifth item for your list, which has to do with whether you, as a non-minority, are appropriating something that a minority has been given a hard time for. For instance, a number of Black hairstyles have been denigrated for generations, leading to people having to deal with damaging, toxic, expensive, time consuming chemical treatments to achieve more culturally acceptable hair. So when non-minority people wear cornrows or dreadlocks to be trendy, especially while Black people are still being made to feel uncomfortable (or being discriminated against) for wearing the same styles, that can sting in a different way. This isn’t limited to cultural characteristics, but it’s a sensitive aspect of appropriation that includes cultural stuff.
I take issue with this.
Main point being that, no matter how respectful the appropriating individual is, they are now being judged for actions that they themselves may have never taken.
Secondary point, and I know this is a nitpick, you say “minority” and “non-minority”, but those terms can always flip when you change view points. I doubt you would give white people from African Countries a pass on their cornrows for being minorities in their country, and if you did, what if they move to the US?
I think people should be free to enjoy whatever hairstyle no matter the actions of unrelated other people. But what do I know, I’m just a person from a culture nobody wants to appropriate anyway.
I respect your opinion. I do want to clarify that if, let’s say, a white German living in Ghana were broadly discriminated against or mocked for wearing lederhosen (I won’t pretend to be able to think of an up-to-date cultural tradition specifically associated with white people, please bear with), then it would be hurtful for their Ghanaian neighbors to start “discovering” lederhosen-inspired fashions while denying the impacts of the ill treatment endured by these oppressed German transplants. It’s not about race or hairstyles, but mistreatment at the hands of people who (usually) don’t recognize the power or perceived power inherent to their social position.
I will give some more thought to your comment about white people from African countries. My initial reaction is that cornrows may or may not be part of their own culture, and they may not be living in a context where white people have the social power to harm or harass other Africans on a racial basis. If we’re talking about South Africa, of course, that’s not the case, so it still seems like it comes down to who’s in control. But I will reflect on it. Thanks.
I would like to add another viewpoint to the discussion. I am German, and for me it would heavily depend what you think while you wear it. Basically if I would ask you “what do you think about us Germans in Ghana”, the reply of the person would determine if them wearing Lederhosen is inappropriate or not. I absolutely agree with the fact that recognition of the mistreatment is the key point here; however, you often cannot recognize it from the outside. Obviously if someone wears a big MAGA sticker on their back, or a “Black Lives Matter” pin, it is easy to comprehend; but as very often in life, most situations aren’t as easy as that. Long story short, we often cannot recognize from the outside if something is cultural appropriation or not; we would need to ask the person.
Snowflakes: “It is offensive for a westerner to wear a Japanese kimono. You are not Japanese!”
Native Japanese: “We insist you wear this kimono so you feel like part of the group.”
Based on a true story.
Lol, reminds me of one of the Mario games a while back - no idea what the context was, but Mario took on different personas, which I’m assuming gave him abilities specific to whatever ‘form’ he took kinda like Kirby.
Anywho, one of them was a Mexican theme, which made Mario don a sombrero and poncho. Lots of touchy white people on the internet were PISSED cuz how could Nintendo be so insensitive to the Mexican culture?!
…meanwhile, Mexican gamers were fucking ecstatic cuz HOLY SHIT MARIO’S WEARING A SOMBRERO! LET’S GOOOOOO!!!
Good times.
That was either Super Mario Odyssey or Paper Mario: Sticker Star (Mario can wear a sombrero in both). In Odyssey it’s just a themed cosmetic that can be bought with coins. In Sticker Star, it’s an attack.
Yeah and one of the reasons why we will never get again paper Mario references in other Mario games
God-damnit
Complaining about sharing cultures IS racism. These idiots complaining about cultural appropriation have gone too far up their own ass.
Melding, sharing food clothing and customs makes everyone better! These bullshit micro divisions need to stop.
Sharing culture isn’t cultural appropriation.
Yes, that was the point.
The first paragraph implies they’re the same thing.
What “idiots complaining about cultural appropriation”? It’s not exactly a common thing, despite what caricatures of them might make you think. No one is getting upset that anyone eats food from another culture.
The only actual examples I can think of that I’ve actually heard discussed are “please don’t dress as my race as a costume, it’s basically blackface” and “my religion was systematically driven to the brink of extinction, I’d appreciate it if you didn’t use it as a fun activity to express your creativity”.
These things always seem chock full of getting defensive about something that doesn’t really happen, or acting like the smallest pushback to the dominant culture doing whatever they want is incredibly terrible.
Appropriation isn’t an issue when it’s just cultures sharing. It’s an issue when people reduce the culture to the things in question, forget that there’s actually people involved who deserve respect, or outright claim ownership of the thing in question.Don’t go to a Halloween party dressed as a Puerto Rican. Don’t grab a random assortment of native American religious practices, mix them with crystals and use it to showcase your creativity.
How do Puerto Ricans dress up?
In reality? Like anyone else.
As a costume?
The not-puerto-rican editor of the magazine bon appetit went to a Halloween costume dressed as a caricature of a Puerto Rican with his also not Puerto Rican wife.
It came into my head as an example of something less obviously problematic than blackface, but more obviously problematic than dressing as a Disney character that’s a depiction of a different race.Feel free to substitute any other ethnicity or race into my example as it makes sense to you.
How is that being dressed as a Puerto Rican?
You’d go to Venezuela or Colombia and see people dressed the same as well
Hell even Ecuador or Peru I think
Baseball is very popular in Latin and central America, is not unheard of that someone is fan of a baseball team from another country
I don’t see how being dressed with something resembling merchandise of a baseball team means you are Puerto Rican or dressed like one
And to go further, I believe it is EXTREMELY racist to think so.
Well, it’s what he said he was doing, so that’s why I went with that. Also note the specific terminology associated with Puerto Ricans.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/dining/bon-appetit-adam-rapoport.html
In isolation it would be racist to assume a man wearing a baseball jersey was Puerto Rican or dressed as a one as a caricature. It’s not when it’s labeled as such by the people in the photo, and when asked about it they admit that’s what they were doing, and then apologize and then ultimately resign.
To be honest, all that just seems like an incident blown out of proportion
As I see it, someone else is referring to this dude as papi, which is basically daddy but in Spanish, and then added a hashtag on Instagram that says “boricua”, which might as well be related to food as the guy is apparently a chef?
It never says he is cosplaying as a Puerto Rican. At least in the picture they post, nor it looks like it’s the intention.
Then there is a lot of people saying something about brown face or black face? What, can’t people be tanned? Or somehow do they think everyone from LATAM is brown or black?
Alright. It’s entirely incidental to the point I was making so I don’t feel particularly invested in defending his actions being the way he said they were.
Replace it with one of the news stories about a politician wearing blackface if it makes you feel better, or fill in what you think would work better as a racist caricature outfit depicting someone from Puerto Rico.
I stand by my original statement that if you think to yourself “I’m going to go to this Halloween party as a Puerto Rican (or any race)” you honestly shouldn’t do that, regardless of what comes into your mind when you picture that race, since races aren’t costumes.I’m not sure why you would think Boricua is related to food. It means a person from Puerto Rico. It’s like arguing that “#new-yorkers” is about food. If it was about food, or his costume wasn’t what it was, why would the picture just randomly be labeled with either this unknown food term despite no food being in the picture, or why would you go to a costume party not wearing a costume or as a generic baseball fan and post a picture of yourself labeled “Puerto Rican”? And then resign, referencing the Halloween costume amongst the list of racial insensitivities behind that choice?
The person in the article who used the term brownface is a person who actually worked with him and would presumably be able to tell if he had put on makeup to change his skin tone.
As with most things, it’s a continuum. Some assimilation is good, a hairstyle, a clothing style, food, even customs. Sometimes certain people can go too far, and it gets more problematic. Think the jeweler in Snatch that isn’t Jewish but pretends to be. The episode of The Neighborhood with Nicole Sullivan. Rachael Dolezal.
Exactly, no Scottish person is getting bent out of shape if Im wearing tartan plaid shirts but dressing up and pretending to be Rastafarian would be inappropriate as Im white.
Literally no Latin American is going to be bothered Or annoyed in any way whatsoever if you don typical dresses of their culture.
We love our culture and love it even more when we influence gringos to dress as our ancestors did.
The joy is palpable. It makes you part of the family. And that’s plenty
Besides, no one here knows what the deal is with getting offended on behalf of someone else. If anyone has a problem, they speak up their minds.
Slurs? Motherfückêr, that’s half our language.
It’s damn true. I ran a crew of workers that were Spanish speaking. After two years all I gotta say is, is there a word that isn’t used as a dick?
Everything means dick in Spanish if you try hard enough
It applies to everything btw.
To date, “the thing from the thingy” is the most sought spare part in all of Latin America.
You don’t know what it is, no one knows, but it means nothing and everything at the same time.
Our hardware store dependents are fluent in trillion of languages at this point
Also, plenty of Latin American culture was basically forced on the indigenous by the Spanish. There’s a reason why poor people in countries like Bolivia dress more like 16th century Spanish peasants than their indigenous ancestors. Those bowler hats people wear in Bolivia aren’t part of Incan culture.
If you dress like what people consider to be traditional Bolivian dress these days and you’re American, I guess you’re appropriating Spanish culture from centuries ago? I don’t think anyone would give a shit.
The concept of cultural appropriation seems to be pretty useless in practice.
The cases I’ve encountered where it makes some bit of sense fit better under the concepts of racism or exploitation. The complaints about cultural appropriation online seem to more often attack innocent behaviour or someone genuinely appreciating another culture.
Drink tea, make tacos, wear a kimono, don’t be an asshole
The actual complaints I see about cultural appropriation online are mostly directed at corporations trying to sell ethnic stuff. But that’s not as controversial.
The silly personal attacks are common in memes just like this one, serving as centrist strawmen to vilify progressives. People love to talk about and ridicule it so much that it seems a lot more common than it actually is.
But that’s not as controversial.
It IS controversial. Its just controversial for the same chuds who demand the right to throw on brown-face and call it cosplay. As soon as a beer company starts releasing their label in Spanish or putting a foreign flag on a product or otherwise identify with the wrong kind of foreigner, a big segment of the population loses its mind.
I think a big part of appropriation is either pretending the thing is from a different culture or just divorcing it from any existing cultural context. People just don’t think about what an actual effect is so just knee jerk accuse anything vaguely similar of cultural appropriation.
Agreed on the first point. But even in progressive circles I hardly ever actually see this kind of behavior. Rather we want it to be a thing because it’s so satisfying to dunk on those ignorant and self-righteous morons.
So it’s been memed hard to the point that the term has become a favorite tool of right-wing pundits pushing culture war narratives.
Just something to consider as we accept and reinforce the trope.
Absolutely, or it’s like an internet liberal thing not a real person thing.
I was at a puzzle meet and had brought a harry Potter puzzle and had a moment of “oh shit, JK Rowling is not the best choice for this group” but no one actually cared for something that tangentially transphobic.
Kimono literally just means “thing to wear”.
I’ve heard multiple Japanese people tell me how funny it is how much foreigners concern themselves over wearing… Clothes.
Congratulations, You just defined cultural appropriation.
If I had and it was that easy, we wouldn’t have this neverending stream at someone getting offended because someone did something associated with a culture they don’t have obvious blood ties to.
I think there is asshole behaviour that could be described as cultural appropriation, but I think the vast majority of them also fit under “exploitation” or “racism”.
It’s also apparent that if you tell people “cultural appropriation is bad”, you get pretty silly outcomes. Suddenly you have protests because a restaurant serves sushi without being ethnically japanese, or someone yells at you because you post a photo of a california roll.
Given those examples I should probably go have lunch
You’re being trolled, there’s nobody saying that unless online trolls convinced them. It’s concern trolling to stoke division.
I think there’s a mix. I get the impression that cultural appropriation as a thing to be offended about is well past its peak and dying out, but back when it was popular I knew people in real life angry about these things. Not bad people either… well meaning people who spent a bit too much time online and didn’t think things through themselves.
There’s things like native American sports mascots which are but some Native tribes say it’s ok, but they also don’t speak for every native American.
I can see how it’s extra sensitive, given the genocide
Nobody has ever yelled at me for eating or posting a picture of my American Midwest grocery store sushi, get the fuck outta here.
The irony here is that the term cultural appropriation has been politically appropriated, the same way that many of these explorative racial theories are, like woke, like social justice, like critical race theory. They are taken from their academic settings and eventually used to suppress actual concerns raised by denegrating it and reducing it to something that is both laughable and fundamentally not what it is.
oh yeah, as an academic term it’s probably useful
A new Stonetoss huh
dot world starting to look more like voat than reddit
I’m not familiar, can you explain for the class?
Stonetoss is a comic writer who is also just straight up a nazi, and makes a lot of pretty bad comics.
I don’t think the guy who made this comic is on his level but I’m only judging off this single one.
At my wedding reception, my wife’s cousins plopped a giant black and gold sombrero on my head to welcome me to the family. I’m expected to bring said sombrero to family get togethers and smash beers con mi familia
It’s real simple; is the group in general okay with you wearing doing thwir traditions? If yes, then it’s okay.
So Kimonos, mostly okay, Native American Headdresses, mostly not okay.
I’ve never heard about “cultural appropriation” outside of jokes making fun of it. And it’s one of the right’s favourite strawmen. Maybe it’s time to let it go?
The counterexample to Mexicans and their Sombreros is Plains Indians and their War bonnet (those feather crowns they used to sell as “Indian kids costumes”), whenever cultural appropriation is mentioned this comes up, so I’d be rather surprised if you hadn’t heard of it before.
Any spicy takes on that one, or have you really just never heard of it?
Idk if I’m just old now and it’s not the parties I go to but I’m sure glad that “sexy native american” isn’t really a Halloween costume anymore.
I’ve had so many people claim I’m racist online for saying stuff about China. Even after I point out that I’m Chinese, it still doesn’t help for some reason.
You’re speaking english on the internet. Not only are you white, you are American and Male by default.
I’m from a time where it was accepted there were no girls on the internet. Only kids and FBI agents. So yes, I’m male :)
Nah dude we’re all 16/f/cali for reals
Whats your ICQ?
i remember it started with an 8
It seems like literally every Chinese person I’ve talked to is absolutely delighted when a westerner is interested in Chinese culture. I remember being assigned a trip to a buffet for a high school Chinese class, and my atonal 你好 got about as much praise as a baby sputtering out “da-da” for the first time. I posted some calligraphy on 小红书 a couple days ago and I am getting gassed up for it.
You can say racist stuff about a group whether you belong in the group or not.
What is this absurdity of thinking that you get a free pass to say crap?
“Black people should have remained slaves. But it’s ok, I can say it because I’m black”
Nonsense.
There’s a far cry between me criticising the CCP for things like the Uyghur genocide and other political issues, and your made up strawman argument. Anybody should be free to criticise any country in the first place, without having to worry about skin colour.
Keep saying it, you’re only offending reactionaries and tankies - and it is not even their goal to be happy, as near as anyone can tell.
Oh yeah, I’ve been banned multiple times for being a Chinese who’s racist against China. I plan to keep being racist by that particular definition.
You implied that being Chinese is a counterpoint to people calling you racist. That’s what I was commenting on.
Whether what you said to those people was racist or not is out of the point. I was criticizing the fact that you consider that being Chinese would prevent you from being racist, which is absurd.
I think pretty much everybody can agree that being of a certain race gives you a lot more leeway and defense against accusations of racism against that race. It would take an extremely radical statement to go beyond that.
… at least, that’s what my black friends tell me when they call each other ‘nigga’.
Most americans maybe, I’ve never seen this idea anywhere else.
And funnily enough people don’t have the same logic with, for example, sexism.
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Usually it is the Yankees who take offense at the expense of us Latinos. We will always love to see others enjoy a part of our culture (as long as it is not in an exploitative and fetishistic way).
fetishistic way>
I guess it was only a matter of time before I was called out on what I do with queso.
We will always love to see others enjoy a part of our culture (as long as it is not in an exploitative and fetishistic way).
I think this is a big part of the reason why some people get all white-knight about cultural appropriation. It can be quite difficult to know, as a cultural outsider, and from a glance, when something is being done in an exploitative and/or fetishistic way.
You know what? you’re right.
Usually, to solve that, what I do is look at who did it and ask (the person directly or myself) why they did it.
A practical example: You know that new DC animated series? I think it’s called Creature Commandos. I haven’t seen it, but I hear it’s very good. Mind you, if you have seen it, can you tell me if anything happens, anything at all, related to Venezuela?
What happens is that they used as intro a very famous and beloved Venezuelan song: “Moliendo Café” (grinding coffee). All the other Venezuelans I’ve seen have loved it, but I remain skeptical, because I can’t help wondering: Did they chose that song because it’s somehow related to what is told in the story? Because Gunn just wanted to? Or because it sounded “very Latin” and different enough from the Mexican songs they always reuse? If it’s the first, great; if it’s the second, no problem; but the third…?
And the thing is, if I happen to come across the Youtube channel of some Swiss guy doing a electric guitar cover of “Moliendo Café”, I wouldn’t even go to his comments and yell “Cultural Appropriation!”, because he’s just an individual and what he does is harmless (and pretty neat). But a big company like Warner/Discovery…?
Unless the main people responsible are from or have roots in the country where the cultural expression comes from, it can’t be anything but exploitation and, of course, cultural appropriation.
I’m unfamiliar with the show, but thank you so much for engaging with the nuance of the situation, here. I agree with what you have to say regarding context surrounding “Moliendo Café”. Context matters. OP’s comic is a bit too “strawman” for my tastes.
There’s discussion to be had, for sure, but this comic squeezes all the nuance out of a complex topic just to score an easy gotcha.
Well, is just a Small comic, it hasto be this way or else it would not be funny. But yeah, the real world is a lot more complex that any piece of entertainment could ever portrait.
Agreed. The humor of the comic is in the hyperbole.
If it’s difficult to know, people probably should be given the benefit of the doubt
Definitely. Innocent until proven guilty. But then, the conversation does still have to happen, sometimes. That’s how people (on both sides of the debate) learn the difference in the first place.
You mean I cannot wear a sombrero while having sex? That’s sad. But okay.
I mean “fetish” in the pretentious and boring way.
I was just joking. Imagine me having sex.
I know you were joking, I just wanted to avoid to imagine anybody else having sex.
On one hand certain things have certain meaning in the culture and maybe some people will look sidewise but on the other hand people that practice that culture probably don’t expect some random dude to know everything it their culture. But “cultural appropriation” has mostly been used to virtue signal
Great, let’s mindlessly retread the right-wing’s favorite progressive strawmen for the lulz. Any other culture war bullshit I can feel smugly self-righteous over?
“Wie de schoen past trekt 'em aan.”
If you feel spoken to by this comic then maybe you got a problem…
Do you know what a strawman is?
This is an exact copy of a YouTube video from years ago
Are you saying this is content appropriation?
