Absolutely both are needed. I struggle to understand how people think a rural area with 5 minute drives between homes could be connected to a public transit network that is timely and not astronomically expensive.
Roads in rural new England are most often publicly funded, and are connected into a network of roads and are for transit, so rural roads are in fact a public transit network. I get that you mean trains and buses, though.
Rural roads are just expensive, period. Putting electric cars on them would additionally shorten their lifespan, so I fail to see how either public transit or electric cars are supposed to help. Plus, rural folks are not major emitters, so it doesn’t really make much sense to even try to find meaningful emission savings there.
You eliminate the rural area with 5 minute drives between homes. Japan has a much higher population density more generally, granted, and they do occasionally get older, offset, single homes that are miles from anything else. But they also have extremely rural villages with maybe 2000 people that are still about as rural as you can get and still go in for farming. Many other places (I would say, basically all of them?) do this as well, and not all of them have high population density. I think, almost definitionally, the land use I’m proposing has a higher pop density, but the style of development generally, you’d be hard pressed not to classify it as rural.
The solution here is to orient the land use radially. Also probably to use less land generally, but that’s a separate issue. Most land use in america looks like having 20 different farms, that are each like 3 or 4 miles across, sometimes with multiple plots, with each house being positioned as far away from the other houses as possible, usually somewhere along the edge of a plot, and then running roads out to each of them, sometimes dirt roads, sometimes paved, usually some combination of the two for higher use vs lower use vs private.
Instead of that, you do what people have been doing for centuries. You clump the 20 different houses together in one contiguous strip that’s placed along some sort of rail line or higher traffic road, and then you disconnect all the plots of land from the particular houses. Ownership doesn’t necessarily have to correlate with one plot of land vs another. Then you gain all of the benefits that entails, and if everything is laid out sensibly, then you’re only about 3 miles from your specific plot. Utilities become cheaper to maintain, emergencies like fires, medical problems, natural disasters, become much easier to deal with, you can start building some actual infrastructure, like, say, a rail line.
That becomes much easier to justify if you only gotta send that shit to like one concentration of 20 or 30 or houses instead of sending it to those 20 or 30 houses individually, most especially if that line is just passing through before heading somewhere else, which should generally be the case. Maintenance of that rail line also becomes less problematic compared to that of a road if we’re considering that this rural area is probably mostly going to be farmland that demands larger industrial equipment shipments, and is going to be shipping back and forth things like grain, bulk goods which would do much better to be shipped by train compared to most other forms of transit. Slap that together with a multi-daily passenger rail line that passes through it as a stop and you’re pretty much set.
If we were allowed to Sim City our way to goodness, I’d pretty much agree with you.
But my province, a fair chunk of that land is held and others aspire to it.
I mean, my answer doesn’t make any of those people happy, but it’s basically just, fuck those people, if there’s a correct way to do something, we should do things in said correct way, rather than capitulating to everyone’s half-baked propagandized idiot desires
I’m pretty sure this is the reasoning espoused by every autocrat in history, many of whom thought they were doing things for the better.
I mean, yeah, but the major difference is that they were wrong and dumb and I am correct
Except we already have built it wrong. Maybe if the government bought all of those houses and re-zomed the land forbidding houses but we’re talking more than 10 million homes (probably WAY more) probably $4 trillion+ and that isn’t even accounting for building new infrastructure. Not to mention people would refuse to leave their land. Realistically this is probably a $50 trillion undertaking.
Money’s just an object. Just do maybe 3 or 4 five year plans, and you’d probably be able to get there. If they don’t like it, eminent domain their asses. I dunno. It’s not a real obstacle, to me, that they’re deciding to intentionally be obstinate and intentionally deciding to make all their neighbor’s QoL worse. Just an slightly smaller version of the problem where some iowan baron decides it’s their right to dump their 84 million people’s worth of pig shit into a massive pig shit lagoon, tainting 70 something percent of the water supply. Except in this case, people aren’t getting malaria and we’re not having water quality issues. Instead, they’re getting heart disease and increased risks of lung cancer from needing to drive everywhere, they’re having to work fruitlessly on road and utilities maintenance jobs for longer, and grandma dies maybe 10 years earlier than she would’ve cause she was 5 miles away and nobody was able to notice that she wasn’t coming out of the house.
It’s not a big obstacle to your theory in your mind. A lot of rural people would go to war before being forced to abandon their properties. It becomes a pretty big problem to reality then. And in some of the more rural areas the backroad dirt or gravel connectors are maintained by the residents. You should spend a couple of days exploring the upper peninsula in Michigan. You need at minimum an AWD vehicle with a foot of ground clearance. There’s honestly like one paved road.
I don’t live in a place like that, I live in a shitty suburb with no sidewalks or bike lanes, or even a shoulder on the road. You can’t go anywhere without a car, it’s deadly. But I do vacation in places like I was describing almost exclusively. And most of them would never move to a city. But you’d just force them? My politics are anti-authoritarian. If I understand you correctly, you would empower monsters to do heinous things to your own citizens.
Yeah, i would empower monsters to do heinous things to my citizens, like forcing them to live in a rural village where someone will care for them when they’re old, and their utilities layouts will make sense, and their cost of living and lifestyle footprint will massively decrease. Oh no! The horror!
Also, I dunno. ahh, they’ll go to war, how horrifying! whatever shall we do! How many of these people will actually go to war, though? That’s some shit that floats around a lot, but I realistically think that if you just kick someone into some situation that’s realistically better than what they were previously hucking, then they’d probably just take it. IF you really wanted to swing it, though, then you could just swing it all through the markets and then fuck them over that way, just like they’re already being fucked. Not many people actually have that killdozer gene in them, though, and they wouldn’t really have a good target. There’s no amount of “blowing stuff up” or “going to war” that can realistically bring back a, by it’s nature, highly vulnerable, detached development style like that, and blowing stuff up doesn’t really help you contest with whatever your current standards of living are.
Lemme ask you this, though. How do you think we should solve the problem of the suburbs? Do you think a market solution is going to operate fast enough? Do you think those solutions are going to solve the broader problems with the housing crisis popping up in every major city? Do you think they will be enacted fast enough to mitigate climate problems?
Tiny cars is the only solution
I would unironically drive something like this. I’ve often wondered if I could make a street legal go cart.
Mandalorian armor suit with jetpack and climate control for me.
I swear this sub is the same thing repeated in different variations over and over
[looks at sub name]
I checked the sub again and it’s only the front page posts I see that aren’t any good, they’re just text post rants like this one, kind of like the Lisa Simpson template, not even a meme
To be fair, they are contributing something and it still brings awareness and discussion.
But what if one day five years from now you need to move 20 refrigerators at midnight and all the trains suddenly break down?
/s
Yeah, trains.
But then how can we turn trillions of dollars by shackling people to an expensive automobile along with its repairs and insurance costs? How can we further exploit by forcing the use of these vehicles, thus requiring the purchase of their fuels and the use of asphalt companies to pave endless highways and streets? The public yearns to be exploited- no, it needs to be.
So, I don’t know if you know this or not, but a majority of people want their cars. Nobody is forcing their use. Roads exist because people want their cars, and they want to be able to get places in those cars.
I want my car the same way I want to go to work tomorrow.
This exactly. Do I want a car in the US’ current car-centric hell where taking a bus across town could take two hours? Yeah, absolutely. Would I want one in a US with robust public transit and micromobility infrastructure? Almost certainly not. It’s a constant financial drain and huge pain in the ass at every turn.
When people say we need to get rid of cars, we mean that we need to 1) build up viable alternatives to cars and in conjunction 2) stop letting the interests of cars dominate everything else. Car drivers in the US are actively given enormous privilege over every other mode of transportation. Businesses need to meet ridiculous parking minimums to ensure you can drop your giant metal box anywhere, anytime and for free, dramatically reducing walkability; speed limits are basically never enforced, speeding up car commutes but dramatically increasing the danger for those who elect for micromobility; ungodly amounts of transportation funds get funneled into unsustainable road projects while public transit starves; car companies are deliberatelly allowed to skirt environmental regulations by selling even less environmentally friendly trucks and SUVs; and basic traffic calming measures are given ridiculous thresholds like “Have X number of people died here yet?”
If you start taking away the insane privileges that are afforded to and often even mandated for cars, you make way for other means of transportation to grow and become the optimal choice for most people. Some people will still use cars because they need to or want to, but even those people will use them less frequently.
I want my car, and I want 100 others. I just can’t afford all the cars I want. Most of the people I know also want more cars or sportier, more expensive cars.
Do they want to get to places on those cars, or do they want to get to places and cars are the only (or only practical) way?
They want to get places in those cars. Why do you think everyone “goes to work”? They go to work, because … they’re providing a service for people who are…
dun dun dun…
Driving cars to the places they want to get to, for commerce. This shit isn’t mandated. You don’t HAVE to own a car. Everyone WANTS to own cars.
This shit isn’t mandated. You don’t HAVE to own a car. Everyone WANTS to own cars.
Terminal case of carbrain. I feel like I just stepped into a 1960s Ford Motors propaganda film reading this comment. Like I’m reading the perspective of someone who’s never set foot in a city with functional public transit/micromobility infrastructure and walkability in their life, or if they have, they tried to shoehorn their obnoxious 2019 Child Crusher AWD SUV into it and either completely missed out or actively blamed the objectively safer, more efficient, more pleasant infrastructure for impeding on their ability to go vroom vroom.
You’re out of touch with reality. Go talk to a normal person sometime. Like, face to face. Not in your internet echo-chamber.
As a mid-westerner, cars and driving is in my culture and DNA. For many of us, cars are our freedom machines, the only way to move on in life, the only way to get anywhere. I love to drive and I can drive almost anything. What I don’t like, is having to drive to survive, having to constantly be in a hurry.
Same, I really enjoy driving in rural areas across long distances with low traffic. I hate driving in cities.
Any time I go to a city with a decent subway/metro/light rail line that is my first choice if possible. Or walk, since a lot of city downtowns are very walkable, especially compared to rural areas and spread out midwestern towns woth barely any shade trees.
Ah, I see that Moo Deng has infiltrated the fediverse, welcome queen
During WWII they invented the concept of gross domestic product to quantify a country’s ability to wage war. The higher the GDP, the bigger the military it could support.
GDP is a measure of how much economic activity there is. If I pay you and then you pay someone else and then that person pays me the same amount we’ve increased the GDP without actually doing anything. So the US, knowing this was their key performance indicator, set about increasing GDP.
So they make everyone buy a car, then gas, then service, then insurance instead of building rail infrastructure. The same goes for child care: If you make it so both parents have to work and pay someone else to watch their kids that’s a much bigger boost to GDP than one or even both parents being able to stay home and raise their kids. Having everyone in a suburb have to buy their own lawnmower and trimmer and grill and stove and washer/dryer and dishwasher also boosts GDP way more than sharing things.
Plus there’s the fact that cars require a lot of the same technologies and factories as a lot of war materiel. If we were ever to be in another global conflict we’d need to build all the guns and trucks and uniforms at home, and without a strong car industry we’d have to start a lot of that from scratch.
But we’ve got the biggest GDP in the world so I guess that’s something.
Man I really wish all that conspiracy rambling was real. As misguided as it would be, it would show a ruling class with political direction and effectiveness. I’d be happier if that was the reality - even if everything you said was true - over the mindless chickens we have wandering around our collective political landscape.
A bunch of mindless chickens chasing GDP would have the same effect
Look, I’m not about to take transportation advice from a river mammal that enjoys showering its neighbours with faeces using its helicopter tail.
That being said, he’s not wrong.
The entire society is designed and structured specifically so that you need a car, its a bug, not a feature.
The more cars you have, the more you require cars.
Those still rely on gasoline.
I can find the calculations again but even if you would drive 250km a day it would still have a 4x bigger CO2e impact to eat 200gr(typical serving size per meal) less meat per day than to switch to public transit. So if you’re not plant based, being anal about what car you drive is just ignoring the
elephantfarm animal in the room.Okay but eating less meat doesn’t reduce micro plastics from tire dust if I still drive a car.
One step at a time I guess
I’m just saying, buying beans and rice is cheaper than a 60 grand electric car