cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/21396125
Stephen Starr in Hamtramck, Michigan
Mon 14 Oct 2024 11.00 EDT
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Interesting, this was exactly my mindset on voting at age 10 or so. Guess some people never gets out of that phase?
This is the kind of meme that talks past you, degrades you, and then will complain when not responded to.
The meme is not abusive but it does describe a cruel and illogical behavior rife in this thread.
A behavior in support of genocide, no less.
Angry with the Biden administration – and, by extension, Kamala Harris – for its support for Israel, Arab Americans may be willing to overlook Trump’s history of closeness with Israel’s hard-right leaders.
So, these individuals could be described as the common clay of the new West?
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yeah man, denigrate them more, that’ll surely get them on your side! maybe a touch more smug condescension? anything except engaging with their concerns, of course.
I call conservatives dumb too.
These people aren’t special. Just a different kind of dumb.
Similar in the way they vote against their own interests.
personally, I think ignoring the concerns of voters in a historically very important swing state months before the election is a recipe for a disastrous rerun of 2016, and should be avoided if you’re actually concerned with winning, protecting democracy, etc. but I guess we’ll see if the strategy of “fuck you, vote for me” works out this time 🤷
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(your mask is slipping)
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You see no difference between people put off by settler-colonial genocide and… settler colonists? What?
It’s a movie reference. You should watch Blazing Saddles, it’s very funny.
It’s a great movie, I always tell people to watch it!
In the movie, this is a reference to the racist townspeople in the “Western”. It’s poking fun at the Westerns that romanticized allegedly good and pure settlers (colonizers) and to sympathoze with them. You weren’t supposed to think of them as, in Wilder’s terms, “morons”.
Parent was just trying to call people morons. It’s not a clever reference, I got it. But those people are, specifically, Muslims so put off by the genocide of Palestinians that they’d vote against the administration supporting that grmocide. I would say their political acumen is more developed than the genocidal sheepdogging that we see in this thread, people that can’t even say the word genocide trying to imply they’re the adults in the room. At least they can understand basic leverage and independent action.
But I was making note that the “morons” reference in Blazing Saddles is about settler-colonists whereas the people parent wanted to call morons are literally people that are reacting against settler colonists and their supporters. I think that is an oversight that can only be made through chauvinism, personally. The person wants to feel better than those moved by genocide, they want it to be as narrow as “those people are stupid”. They can’t contend with the content.
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I don’t know what you’re referring to.
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You sure they’re feigning?
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I’m not feigning. I don’t know what point you were making. Perhaps you could expound using more descriptive terms?
It seems that you are currently so agitated that my honest statement of not knowing what you mean must actually be a sneaky bad faith strategem.
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Oh, so is it amnesia then? Because you seemed pretty clear on the topic of discussion until I cornered you. Then, magically - or just conveniently - you have forgotten what we’re talking about.
Feel free to rephrase and expound on what you said. I do not see how it applied to what we were talking about, and therefore don’t see its meaning.
And pretending to be psychic and read my mind (or, perhaps, hallucinating) via the internet doesn’t make you right. How is that even rational?
As I said, I recognize behaviors and clichés. And you have not yet contradicted a single prediction and have accidentally confirmed a few.
Why should anyone believe what you say when it’s clearly either a bad-faith argument full of disinformation or evidence of your ignorance and inability to comment intelligently on this topic?
I have made no bad faith arguments nor presented any disinformation. Please do your best to not make things up and to address what I have actually said.
And, of course, you should be against genocide and act accordingly.
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Yes I know the reference, parent is just calling them stupid really. Though I appreciate you taking the time to explain it and write it up! I wrote a comment to this effect but explaining what I am saying in regards to it here.
Good movie BTW, everyone should watch it, especially if you have ever seen a garbage chauvinist pop Western like anything with John Wayne in it.
Good movie BTW, everyone should watch it,
Correct.
Western like anything with John Wayne in it.
There’s a movie I would suggest watching called In Harm’s Way. Admittedly it’s a WWII movie and not a Western, but it’s…without wishing to spoil let’s just say it’s the most nuanced John Wayne film I’m aware of.
Thanks for the movie rec! I added it to my queue. There is a lot of overlap between WWII movies at the time and Westerns so if nothing else I will enjoy making comparisons. If you could sum up your takeaway in one sentiment, what would it be?
In Harm’s Way: Not all war heroes deserve medals.
Thanks!
Okay, but, abandon her for whom exactly? Just not vote? Vote 3rd party? I am not going to say Harris is perfect, but this is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Third Party, tyically, that’s what most anti-genocide groups are advocating for.
What third party? David Duke just endorsed Jill Stein.
Any anti-genocide candidate, Claudia De La Crúz is best but Jill Stein is often pushed as an alternative.
It’s important to note that Duke said he supports Stein because Stein is against funding Israel, and David Duke hates Jewish people, he doesn’t care about genocide. He supported Trump in 2016 and 2020 but said Trump is too supportive of Israel for 2024.
You mean the same Jill Stein that was endorsed by former KKK leader, seems like a solid choice…
Dick Cheney endorsed Kamala.
Neither of these facts alone necessarily implicate the candidates. You really have to consider the context. Being endorsed by someone hardly means you keep their company.
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I understand, you asked me who the anti-genocide groups were supporting, not a vetted list of everyone who has come out in favor of each third party.
Didn’t ask you anything actually lol.
Edit: This comment I will forever save to show the group think and mindless nature of lemmy politics. I simple called out that I didn’t ask anything and I’m being downvoted for stating that fact and nothing else. Goes to show you, facts don’t matter to these people.
Ah, you were a different user jumping in, my bad. Either way, that’s what was asked originally.
My personal opinion? Claudia De La Crúz all the way.
It’s important to note that Duke endorse Stein because she supports ending support for Israel, and Duke hates Jewish people, he doesn’t care about genocide at all.
You were just so excited to use this talking point that you couldn’t be bothered to note that he was responding to it in the very comment you used it on.
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You formulated it as though you were bringing up something new: “you mean the same X who Y” is for introducing something new into the conversation in relation to X, with X here being Jill Stein. If you had just used David Duke as X and “who lead the KKK” as Y, it wouldn’t have been an absurd contribution.
Though it would still be a silly one, since people know who David Duke is, it’s not some obscure fact. He’s the single most recognizable name in connection with the KKK, perhaps along with the long-dead D.W. Griffith (but probably not).
Its like lemmy world is just democrat bots that respond with these canned attack responses any time Jill stein is mentioned
I wanna try, I wanna try
^^^Jill ^^^Stein
I’m not a Jill Stein voter, but I dont think she can control who endorses her so it doesnt make a lot of sense holding that particular thing against her.
Is there a top down order of bad-faith Democrat talking points distributed every day?
Nope just people out here trying to keep conversations in the realm of reality.
David Duke supports Jill Stein for one single reason: because Jill Stein does not support Israel and Trump does.
Duke even reluctantly endorsed Stein because she is Jewish.
And Stein called him trash and disavowed him.
If you call Jill Stein a white nationalist because of Duke you call every single person who does not support Israel a white nationalist
It is nice to hear she disavowed him. But no it’s not like his attempt to associate with her makes her racist too. It’s just a reminder that she has less chance of winning this election than you do. And citing morals to vote for the party that has transparently turned itself into nothing more than a spoiler is just ridiculous. It’s like rooting for the outfield fans in the home run zone in baseball. (If they lean over and catch it, it’s a home run.)
Shut the fuck up with this
Funny enough, that’s exactly who they’re planning on voting for, too! The way they put it, voting for Stein is their way of not voting for Trump but ensuring he beats Harris.
Many of the candidates from alternative parties are anti-genocide.
The article says Trump directly. Read the interviews and about his new campaign office in hamtramck.
Oh they’re really gonna love how Trump handles Arabs
It’s like the trolley problem, except instead of the other track having fewer people, it has more, and it just loops back around to run over the people on the first track anyway. We should have sent the trolley on a completely different route decades ago.
Lol wait, this was already posted this thread? Is this just a bot account?
You think they’re voting for trump? If so, you’re even dumber than you think they are
This group is the single greatest gift to the 2024 trump presidency and he doesn’t know it yet!
Harris? I agree, she’s torpedoing a very easy campaign.
At least trump will be a great ally to Palestinians!
Course not, the genocidal US Empire needs to be overthrown. Join an org like FRSO or PSL.
Single issue voters, or is this even a single issue because Trump and Harris don’t really have much different on this particular topic? People really have me scratching my head sometimes.
single issue voters
the single issue is the eradication of their families and friends
yeah man I wonder why they don’t support that
If this is a joke, it’s a very bad one. If it isn’t, good luck on pulling your head out of your ass.
Do you consider war crimes, mass murderand sending in our troops to assist in a far right wing colonial war – all done with our tax dollars to be a “single issue” like… school vouchers or Amtrak funding? It seems a very dishonest or at best an inaccurate method to weigh issues against each other.
There is no difference because Harris knows her good little gooses steppers will vote for her no matter what she does or who she kills.
The single issue: genocide
Why are you sheepdogging for genociders? You have always had the option of saying nothing and educating yourself instead.
I am not a single issue voter and I don’t think that way. There are many important issues on the line and I will vote for the candidate that addresses the most. I am not saying that genocide is unimportant, just that I can’t impact it with my selection.
What is more important than supporting and normalizing genocide?
It’s like you’re mentally incapable of reading a comment and responding to the words in it.
I responded directly to what they said re: there being multiple issues they want to weigh. That was their response up me challenging complicity in genocide and asking why the person I was responding to was sheepdogging for genociders. They are trying yo be euphemistic and retreat to the thought-terminsting clichés that reinforce complicity in genocide, which also means avoiding even using the word. So I recontextualized their attempt to decontextualize while still directly addressing it.
Please feel free to tell me which specific parts you would like to see addressed or responded to. I certainly already replied to the first sentence, which was the main point of deflection.
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So, you admit to intentionally mischaracterizing what they said
No? Please do your best to engage with what I say rather than making things up.
Preventing someone from gaining power who will continue genocide, find new targets for genocide, and turn the country into a dictatorship? Choosing the lesser of two evils is the way it works. If you want the greater of two evils then it’s your choice to not participate.
Preventing someone from gaining power who will continue genocide
There could not be a candidate this describes more than Harris. You know, from the Biden-Harris administration behind the genocide happening right now. The one supplying bombs to burn refugee children alive. Have you heard their screams?
I am told Democratic voters are empathetic and strategic. But all I see is racist normalization of genocide and toeing the party line.
find new targets for genocide
That’s a Dem specialty! They have a knack for stoking and supporting genocides. Heck, Obama got one started in Yemen. Even NGOs were saying a vhikd was killed every minute for years by this. Why do you think they are so resilient and steadfast against this genocide and Western attempts to free up Zionist shipping lanes? Did you even know what was done to Yemen?
and turn the country into a dictatorship?
Given that the current “system” has you shilling for genocide you should already question whether you live in a democracy.
Though all of this lesser evilism is also premised on nobody remembering that Trump was already president for 4 years and it was basically the same shot as under Biden. In fact, Biden came in from the right, normalizing the pandemic and slashing benefits for the public, then did the usual, “I’m just a widdle president I can’t do nothin’” act when the SC overturned Roe v. Wade. Ah, but now that there is a genocide to support, unlimited billions for Israel, don’t worry he can bypass Congress. Do you see how the system functions? Do you feel enfranchised? How much less enfranchised were you under Trump?
They’re on the same team. Why do you think Harris’ team is celebrate endorsements from Republican war criminals? A human that cared would spit in their faces and announce charges. You are not provided with such an option for your mainstream party “choices”. They laugh at their committed voters, I’ve seen it in person.
Choosing the lesser of two evils is the way it works. If you want the greater of two evils then it’s your choice to not participate.
No, that’s the way you are told it works by your masters so that you work for them instead of against them. You’ll notice that I am not voting for any genociders. Did I break reality!? Or just deviate from a focus group-tested party talking point?
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It is not a complex issue. There is a genocide and there are increasing calls to support those genociders electorally. Instead of supporting genociders, you should oppose them.
Liberals call “issues” complex in order to speak euphemistically about the horrible things they support. They do not actually have an understanding of the alleged complexity, it is just a lazy thought-terminating cliché. When you do understand something, you can discuss it directly. At the moment, you are apparently more afraid of using the word genocide than actually being complicut in it yourself. Is this the “complexity” you are referring to? Your personal discomfort? I suspect so.
Unless you’d like to explain how it does…
Being consistently against genocide is the first step towards actually fighting against it. I have set the bar very low. Can you clear it?
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This isn’t a 1,000 year Middle east conflict, it’s a modern-day Western settler-colonialist project. It’s an ~80 year ethnic cleansing project.
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A 1000 year Middle East conflict “isn’t a complex issue”?
Israel as a settler colonial entity is around 100 years old. Before that, Christians, Muslims, and Jews lived in the same area with very little sectarian violence for around 800 years.
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You’d say “its nuanced” about colonizers killing indigenous tribes and the indigenous tribes fighting back.
Calling it a thousand year conflict is Zionist propaganda. Plain and simple.
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Yeah sure you’re not saying you agree with them, you’re just repeating their racist propaganda that’s all. Totally different.
No, it’s been a little over a 100 years of Settler Colonialist Zionism. Zionism has not existed for 1000 years.
‘Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History’ by Nur Masalha gives a detailed account of it’s history before British Occupation and ‘A History of Modern Palestine’ by Ilan Pappe gives a detailed account of it’s history since the British Occupation.
Origins of Zionism
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe.
Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing
Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
Historian Works on the History
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Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
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The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
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A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
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The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
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The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
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The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
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10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
🏆
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A 1000 year Middle East conflict “isn’t a complex issue”?
This is what you said in the context of the current conflict, which is Israel engaging in Genocide of Palestinians. That is a result of Zionism, which is fundamentally a Settler Colonialist Ideology that has only been around for a little over a hundred years, not a thousand.
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A 1000 year Middle East conflict “isn’t a complex issue”?
I already stated what is not complex. It is that there is an ongoing genocide and that you and others are sheepdogging for the perpetrators. I stated it directly and your response continues this pattern of avoiding even mentioning the term genocide even though it is the topic of this thread and the points I have made.
Re: “1000 year middle east conflict”, this is itself an ahistorical, chauvinist absurdity that papers over the real modern history of colonialism and Zionism and usually has a few dashes of Islamophobia thrown in as well, though yo be honest I would not be surprised if the people sheepdogging for genociders were not particularly familiar with the details of that reference.
More realistically, the “it’s complex” line serves as a way to avoid thinking about or interrogating the topic, it is a way for the ignorant to feel secure despite knowledgeable troublemakers telling them specific but inconvenient things. Like, say, that you should oppose genocide.
Either you’re obviously too ignorant to hold intelligent opinions on this matter, or you’re clearly arguing in bad faith by stating obvious falsehoods.
At the moment I’m trying to navigate middle schooler level chauvinist talking points and asking you to address what I say rather than what you make up. Oh, and to remind you of my main and original point, the one you are afraid to even mention!
Why should anyone take you seriously?
This is Lemmy, there is a limit to which anyone should take anonymous forum comments seriously.
But you should take genocide seriously. If you are not knee-jerk advocating against it, and are instead trying to support its perpetrators, you had better have the very best knowledge and justifications, better than I can even imagine, to make a case for why you support those carrying out the greatest crime.
Everyone should take genocide seriously and that is what people should listen to in my messages. They should also recognize that the responses to my advocacy require dishonest behaviors.
Naturally, as the election approaches, liberals will increasingly panic and try to shut down anything that disagrees with their (pro-genocidal) party line. But I have and will continue to peel those with empathy and honesty off of that track.
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Cherry picking a single detail out of a complex situation doesn’t suddenly make it a simple situation.
Is it a “detail” that fails to include very important context (none of which you can seemingly specify) or is it genocide, something with so much weight that you are afraid to even mention it despite my repeated reminders that it is the topic here?
One of the challenges of evasive and bad faith behavior is that the little quips and pretenses can easily become inconsistent.
Anyways, the actual topic is pretty straightforward. There is a genocide. You should not support those perpetrating it and should instead work against them. So far, you have offered no rebuttal to this outside of straw men and vagaries and posturing.
That is logically fallacious. As is the rest of your argument, which is based on that logical fallacy.
Parrots can repeat many phrases they hear, but they don’t understand their meaning.
Logical fallacies are a set of ways a person can make errors in thinking. The whole point of them is that some nerds thought they were common or important enough to deserve a name. Reflexively accusing me of logical fallacies without naming any, right after I explained how you were using one? Obviously schoolyard “I’m rubber you’re gkue” pantomiming. No understanding, no applicability, just defensive posturing.
And blaming me using disinformation
What disinformation? What did I blame you for?
because I pointed out the fact that your argument is both fallacious and nonsensical, does not make you right either.
Can you tell me when I said or implied, “when I use disinformation against you it means I’m right”? I think you are very confused in both thought and language at this point. You’re relying on quips and phrases that simply do not apply.
Its not 1000 years old. Zionists lie about that to make it seem intractable. Arabs and Jews got along fine for the entire 800 year period of the Ottoman empire which ended in the early 1900s. Learn some history so you dont embarass yourself. its 80 years old, since the land theft, murder, and terrorism of the Nakba, done by Israelis.
Cant blame them, Biden\Harris are literally sending Israel the bombs.
And Trump will just skip the middleman and bomb Gaza and Palestine himself. You’re talking about the guy who moved the embassy to Jerusalem, after all.
Great so now we can have a more certain Trump presidency. Why limit yourself to just one genocide when you can have this guy in power here too:
“How about allowing people to come to an open border, 13,000 of which were murderers, many of them murdered far more than one person, and they’re now happily living in the United States. You know now a murder, I believe this, it’s in their genes. And we got a lot of bad genes in our country right now,”
Biden already started the Lebanon genocide. You’re going to need to up that Trump talking point to three genocides.
Here’s a talking point for you, but from the Republican party’s policy platform:
DEPORT PRO-HAMAS RADICALS AND MAKE OUR COLLEGE CAMPUSES SAFE AND PATRIOTIC AGAIN
By “pro-Hamas” they mean all the free Palestine protestors.
Is that the third or the fourth genocide?
Based on the article, that’s very clearly what they want.
EDIT: anyone who’s downvoting me should try explaining why the Democratic mayor of a Muslim majority town that hates pride flags is endorsing Trump. Some people clearly don’t mind if Trump wins.
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Both parties are beholden to Israel and the power of AIPAC
Other way around. Both parties support Israel because Israel helps secure the Petro-Dollar, by which the US dominates the Global South with predatory IMF loans.
And it’s the cork on land migration out of Africa into West Asia and eventually Europe.
And it’s strategically important for the Red Sea trade route connecting Asia to the Mediterranean (although they’re having a little trouble with this one lol)
And it’s the laboratory for surveillance and detainment and border walls, where they can live test technology and strategies that get exported to prisons and borders and cities around the West.
And it’s a place for antisemitic governments to send all their Jewish citizens.
And, of course, there’s a large apocalyptic cult of Christians that believe we need to immanentize the eschaton so Jesus can return.
Israel serves so many functions!
Not just in Michigan ;)
Context:
- I am not an american, so there may be some missing knowledge for me about the american electoral system.
- I abhor Israel’s genocide in Gaza, and I abhor the biden administration’s support of (and Harris’ seeming continued support of) the genocide.
- My understanding is that Trump is just as, if not more supportive of the genocide in Gaza, and on top of this has his sights on doing some truly terrible things in the US re: minorities, trans rights, etc
So with that context, my question is thus: It seems clear that Trump wouldn’t change anything about the genocide in Gaza, and that he would bring more evil than the current status quo. So if you’re an american voter, you obviously can’t let Trump get in. But, Harris is gross to vote for as well, even if its a “lesser of the two evils” thing. What do you do? As far as I understand its basically one or the other, you dont really have any third party to vote for right?
It’s more of a difference in practical values. At what point does the “lesser evil” itself become intolerable evil? Some people insist that you should vote for Hitler over 101% Hitler, that there is no intolerable level as long as there is a miniscule difference. Others have firm red lines in the sand, like genocide, where they advocate for abandoning them and pushing as hard as you can, even advocating for moves outside the electoral system like revolution.
So to put this in more practical terms, one would neither vote for Hitler or 101% Hitler, and instead vote for The Other Person who Isn’t Much Hitler At All, or abstain or something, and protest and take action in other ways?
The “correct” answer is to vote for “Not Hitler” and join a revolutionary org, such as FRSO or PSL in the US.
Which candidate who opposes both Russia and Israel’s genocide has a path to the presidency? Legitimately, fully feasible path in 3 weeks to get this candidate to have 270 electoral votes?
The point isn’t to win the presidency, but to show the votes the Dems threw away by being genocidal, and again, joining revolutionary orgs.
So throw the country to the fascists polluting our homes, destroying our education system, rallying up people who enjoy committing hate crimes to other Americans. It’s the Democrats fault we will repeat the events of 2016.
Got it.
Fascism is Capitalism in decay, electing democrats doesn’t push fascism back.
This is limiting the scope of thought to four years.
Democrats winning means genocide becomes fully normalized forever, whereas if Trump wins it means four more years of genocide but the democrats will have learnt they cannot ignore the left.
In the short term Trump will be more damaging, but in the long term it is very debatable which is worse.
Hmm. I can understand this perspective. I guess its a bit tough. As a trans person I would find it very hard to do anything that isn’t actively working against trump being in power, because if he gets in power it’s very likely that my life will be in danger (if I was an American). But at the same time, as mentioned before, it wouldn’t be an easy sell for me to be voting pro-harris.
I guess your scenario doesn’t mean you’re going to vote for trump, just that you’ll vote third party or spoil your ballot?
Directly voting for Trump will have the opposite effect. It will show democrats they should be more like Republicans because everyone was voting for Trump.
By putting the votes in a visible place (a third party), the democrats will observe they are missing out on a lot of votes which are directly cast for a left wing agenda. And instead of Dick Cheney they might show up with a left winger in their next campaign to win over those third party voters.
Donald Trump will not be a benefit in the short term. But rewarding democrats for only appealing to right wing voters will not be a benefit in the long term. They will shift even more to the right in 2028.
Yeah, that’s what I thought.
Democrats winning means genocide becomes fully normalized forever,
Even more so if the guy who openly said murder is a genetic predisposition wins.
Who for the record is Donald J Trump.
Genocide is already normalized for republicans. If democrats get to normalize it as well, there will be no non-genocide option in 2028.
When you never draw a red line you signal that they can keep pushing the boundaries of evil.
Your understanding is solid for not being an American. You’re not missing anything substantial-- people who are voting 3rd party think that the “dems need to learn” and that the dems can’t do whatever they want so their vote is supposed to be a punishment. But as you point out that if they really cared about this issue then they would vote for Harris because trump will do worse on this issue and all around. The time to make changes to our political system is not when you vote for president, but in the years leading up to that.
In other words, people voting for 3rd party or Trump over this issue are morons. It sucks that our political system is what it is but if you knowingly vote for anything other than the candidate promising not-fascism, then you are supporting fascism.
I just hope enough democrats understand this. I’m not happy with gaza either but our country is still recovering from the first shit show presidency of Trump, and fascists are closely watching this election.
He hopes that Trump, on the other hand, uses his business acumen to bring down the cost of the products he sells in his store, many of which are imported from overseas. “Trump is not perfect, but we have no choice,” he says.
Hashim’s other major concern is Gaza, where more than 42,000 people have been killed by Israeli attacks. “The No 1 reason [to not vote for Harris] is that she is supporting Israel 100%,” he said.
I don’t understand how someone this stupid is able to run a successful business. The high price of goods now is completely due to republican policies that have taken the brakes off of corporate price gouging and Trump has stated that not only is he 100% supportive of Israel but he will happily supercharge their genocide of the Palestinians in Gaza.
At this point (3 weeks before elections) if she comes out against the genocide, it’s obvious it’s just a career move and not her actual feelings. It will be business as usual afterward.
Apparently this is what her supporters want. As long as they can convince themselves to FEEL like she didn’t want to aid in genocide, that’s all that matters.
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Oh look, anti-Arab racism from liberals already
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I think calling Arab-Americans stupid for refusing to vote for genocide is racist. Harris is handing Trump a victory because she can’t cease US support for Israel.
I don’t think anyone is calling anyone stupid for calling for an end to the genocide. But what’s stupid is when people think that Trump will somehow stop the genocide.
Oh and btw… I was banned from world news. LOL.
But what’s stupid is when people think that Trump will somehow stop the genocide.
No one thinks this
Meaning these people are consciously assisting continuing what they believe is a genocide abroad AND making things worse here too?
Or do they not understand FPTP voting?
As so many Harris-voting lemmitors have instructed me, stopping the genocide is not on the effective ballot as-presented, so no, they are not assisting continuing what is absolutely a genocide. The goal is that they either pressure Harris to not be a ghoul, because they presume she cares about winning more than aiding genocide (this is most likely false) or, if Harris sticks to her guns and either loses or wins by such slim margins that it makes the Dem winning next election without stopping Israel much more hazardous, they (the Muslim/Arab voters) can extract concessions, because even electoral politics doesn’t end with one election cycle, and some strategies aimed at maximizing some long term result can introduce a risk or even a guarantee of short-term costs.
I don’t believe, like I think those voters do, that Dems would trade Israel slaughtering with impunity even for a guaranteed victory, but I think them demonstrating that unwillingness has its own value, since the DNC needs to be brought down. I don’t expect you to agree to this and am not terribly interested in persuading you, I’m just offering an explanation.
Virtually no one thinks Trump will stop the genocide. You’re just strawmaning.
Then why not vote for the other people, who will possibly make it a slightly less bad genocide? What’s wrong with less bad?
You’d have to ask them. If your family or the families of people in your community were being slaughtered by the incumbent administration, you might discover you have a red line after all. Fortunately for you, you’ll probably never really know.
There was a commenter calling Arab-American voters stupid for abandoning Harris.
Well that is stupid. People can be stupid from all corners of the globe.
The knee jerk response from lefties is that any insult or criticism of people who are members of a minority is racist, regardless of if it has anything to do with race (or race adjacent).
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Yeah… I’ve heard better Lowkeys.
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When you are faced with high numbers of marginalized people refusing to vote for candidates contributing to the genocide of friends, relatives, and people of a similar heritage, and your response is that they are “stupid,” rather than trying to understand why they are acting in that manner, you assert yourself as more “enlightened,” and the marginalized people as uniquely stupid. That is why it is racist.
It’s like you didn’t even read what I wrote.
It’s NOT uniquely stupid. Dummies vote against their interests all the time (see comment about white Christians).
And it doesn’t take any special enlightenment to acknowledge how FPTP voting works. In fact, it’s so simple, you’d have to be pretty stupid to be unaware.
But keep ruining that word to the point of meaninglessness.
I read every word of what you wrote.
Arab-Americans are refusing to vote for genocide at much, much higher rates than other ethnicities. My answer is what they have been saying themselves: they can’t vote for continued genocide of their friends, family, and people of a similar background. Your answer is that it’s because Arab-Americans are uniquely stupid among ethnicities in America, which is racist.
Why would they even vote ?
To show the votes she lost by going in on genocide, instead of leaving it to minimization by the media.
I know, I was asking why are they even participating when both of them are against Palestinians and will make the genocide even worse … also it will be useless if she won
They are voting for Stein and Crúz.
Got it , thanks
