There are enough examples why communism is bad. And few in favor of communism. But the left consists of far more then just communism. Many of those systems do work but the right labels everything left as communism, as communism is an extreme which fails every time. There are other forms derived from Marxism and forms of anarchism which are far superior. They are just not that great for mega corporations and billionaires, you know, the ones with all the power. The actual right wing propaganda out there is labeling anything left as communism which is completely dumb.
Communism does and has worked, what are you on about?
Communism only worked on a really small scale, when everyone was in favor of it.
Unless you consider a dictatorship “working”, which it technically might be, but it’s not something I would consider as a viable option. And technically it’s not true communism when there is a dictator with it’s circle of elite.
Another anti-communist that has never left his mind palace
Communism only worked on a really small scale, when everyone was in favor of it.
AES states have and continue to exist, and with them have come drastic increases in life expectancy, literacy rates, access to healthcare, home ownership, and democratic participation, with vast reductions in poverty.
Unless you consider a dictatorship “working”, which it technically might be, but it’s not something I would consider as a viable option. And technically it’s not true communism when there is a dictator with it’s circle of elite.
What are you specifically referring to, here? Not even the CIA believed the USSR to be a dictatorship, according to since released internal records. AES states are functionally far more democratic than the US and other Capitalist states.
So Stalin wasn’t a dictator?
The CIA’s own internal documents (you know, the ones they use to keep themselves well informed, so as to better tailor their external disinfo), repeatedly state that he wasn’t.
Pretty much everything you’ve been told about the USSR and Stalin is false, and comes to you through a thick fog of anti-communist indoctrination cemented during the cold war. It takes a level of courage to question the lies you’ve had hammered into you all your life, that most people don’t have.
Yeah, the gulags were actually happy holiday camps and the millions who died there was just a coincidence it was there while dying at natural causes.
The KGB was actually a fun motorcycle club who never harmed anyone.
Stalin was a fun, loving, caring man, not a dictator at all. He didn’t even want war with nazi Germany, he actually wanted to join the axis. Stalin did nothing wrong.
/s
Come on now, I know there is a lot of anti propaganda out there making everything much worse, but facts are facts. Be careful with believing anything you hear, the other side perfected propaganda too you know. Sure, you can listen to Russian state press, or you could look towards places where there’s press freedom. Make an educated guess which one is more trustworthy.
The USSR was a failed state, Russia is a failed state, the US is a failed state, China is beginning to realize there is no turning back from heading towards a failed state (if not already one).
Travel to former Soviet states. Talk to the people there. See the amazing sharade of the mighty Soviet Union crumble, and find out it’s true colors.
Very rich to talk about gulags and KGB when America has the largest prison population in the world, legal slavery and the CIA, NSA and ICE.
Everything your bitching about exists here in the good old USA. You just ain’t any of the targets. But let’s ask Fred Hampton what it’s like to be one hmm?
The CIA didn’t believe him to be. Stalin had power as the head of state of the USSR, but he did not have all-encompassing, unaccountable power, nor did he reach over every nook and cranny of the USSR.
Consider reading Blackshirts and Reds.
You’re never going to believe it, but the answer was more complicated than the cold war propaganda told you. Shocker.
What I know is from people who lived during the USSR in it’s former states. But sure, what they told me is just western propaganda. They lied about their families being deported to gulags, never to have returned. Their idea of their leaders is all just western propaganda right? I mean, there was no western media, but maybe they were secret CIA sleeper agents or something? All hundreds of locals I’ve talked to, including historians, former politicians and former red army.
Stalin also never had anyone deported to gulags for saying anything he didn’t like right? Do you even know what a dictator is? Or what propaganda is? Claiming any negative information about the USSR is propaganda is propaganda itself. What are your sources? Qanon or Russian state media or something?
Nobody said anything about claiming the Soviet Union was a peachy clean state. You are throwing your own presumptions in and arguing with yourself. All we are saying is that the state isn’t like how you thought it was. But you’d rather double down then consider a slight change to your perception.
Enjoy battling yourself. I am done talking to a man who talks past me.
I don’t really know a lot about philosophy but I will pass on Marxism. I’m practicing maybe great but the overall fear of innovation is a turnoff for me. Being afraid of Technology and the owners of it stifles the creation of things like Lemmy. Innovation is good, technology can be good. People are just bad.
And I always 100% see anarchism thrown around like it would work and is powerful but hasn’t history proven it’s kind of a wet dream for those with no power. You take power away and then someone tries to step in and re-establish that power in their name.
Correct me if you know something I don’t or have some sort of philosophy degree and aren’t just someone who went online and said, “yeah I like that this article also supports my point of view.”
Nothing against you and again I am asking for anyone to explain to me otherwise if you genuinely have knowledge in that field and have read a book or two or have a degree. I want someone who can explain on a knowledgeable level and isn’t just in some echo chamber that Lemmy can be.
Also, I feel the need to clarify. Fuck communism, fuck fascism, and fuck authoritarianism. I also understand one hundred percent socialism doesn’t work either.
I don’t really know a lot about philosophy but I will pass on Marxism. I’m practicing maybe great but the overall fear of innovation is a turnoff for me. Being afraid of Technology and the owners of it stifles the creation of things like Lemmy. Innovation is good, technology can be good. People are just bad.
What on Earth are you talking about? Innovation is core to Marxism, Lemmy itself was made and is made by Marxist-Leninists. Where did you get the idea that Marxism is anti-technology? Why would the Soviets beat the US into space if that was the case?
Also, I feel the need to clarify. Fuck communism, fuck fascism, and fuck authoritarianism. I also understand one hundred percent socialism doesn’t work either.
Ah, got it, you do have no idea what you’re talking about. Why add this tirade on the end?
Lots of commy post lately…
Yeah. You are on a communist majority platform. That’ll happen. Welcome to Lemmy noobie.
You’re on a platform build by Communists, just because Lemmy.world blocks most of the explicitly Leftist instances doesn’t mean there aren’t a lot of Communists on Lemmy.
We’re living in an age where wealth inequality is higher than it was during the guided age as well as the time before the french revolution.
You shouldn’t be surprised.
>goes to the communist platform
> complains about communist posts
Since when lemmy.ml is a communist platform??
Oops! All MLs
Day 1, possibly earlier
Spoken with the same ignorance and confidence that defines every liberal in a debate about communism
Lemmy was built by Communists, along Communist principles. Lemmy.ml is the “main” instance, owned and maintained by the Communist developers. The .ml is a reference to Marxism-Leninism.
.ml also focuses on FOSS and Privacy, but is very much a Communist instance, though most Communists go to Hexbear or Lemmygrad.
cry ab it
Lol I saw the comment that was removed. The comment couldn’t have been more neutral saying people who ignore the problems in the most Communist historical societies reduce the perceived integrity of it’s proponents.
This mod is the exact antithesis of this meme. Pure censorship.
The removed comment was “as a black man”
shut up
As a theory, sure. I just have yet to see it expressed in any functional way that didn’t devolve into a shit show. See: Russia, etc.,
I think it’s telling that so many wish for a return to communism but still defend Putin’s atrocities. :|
What do you mean by "devolve into a shitshow?
See every communist nation in history
I see China building renewable energy capacity, and crazy fast trains, faster than the rest of the world combined.
I see Cuba, a tiny island nation, still independent after 64 years of brutal US sanctions.
I see Vietnam, a popular retirement destination for American ‘expats’.
I see Russia, being fairly shitty and also 100% capitalist for 25 years.
Hmm, seems like you may have been told a bunch of times that communism is bad but never really looked into it.
China is extremely capitalist lmao
I’m not fucking defending capitalism or demonizing communism, it’s just never worked. I see absolutely zero reason to expect any difference if we tried it in the us
China is Socialist with Chinese Characteristics, the CPC practices large and extensive levels of State Planning and the People’s Democracy structure means the Capitalists in China do not control nor guide the State.
Capitalism exists in China as a concession, it isn’t some fully Socialized state, but it is a transitional economy.
Read China Has Billionaires.
Nuh-uh, Xi pressed the big red communism button and now all the capitalism is gone!
[is joke, obviously that’s not how it works]
“It’s just never worked” is ignorant though. Every nation that has tried to dump capitalism has has successes and failures, and there are many factors that contribute to each. Economies are extremely complex and you simply can’t say anything intelligent without getting at least a bit more in-depth than “works/doesn’t work”.
So large increases in literacy rates, life expectancy, home ownership, education access, healthcare access, and democratization of society is “devolving into a shitshow?”
Do you think Russians were better off under the thumb of the Tsar? Do you think Cubans were happier as slaves in Batista’s US-backed slave-state? What point are you genuinely trying to make?
First part is a result of industrialization.
Second part, no they weren’t, but that just means that they were worse off before, not that they were great afterwards.
I genuinely think the idea of communism is great, but human nature will ensure that it will never be successful. There will always be someone who gets greedy and takes more for themselves in the pursuit of wealth and power.
First part is a result of industrialization.
Partially, the other huge part is that the products of production were funneled into safety nets and state projects like railways and universities, providing free education and healthcare, and not corporate profits.
I genuinely think the idea of communism is great, but human nature will ensure that it will never be successful. There will always be someone who gets greedy and takes more for themselves in the pursuit of wealth and power.
What’s considered “Human Nature” changes alongside Mode of Production. It isn’t Human Nature to be greedy, greed is more often expressed within Capitalism.
Additionally, wealth disparity went way down in the USSR. It wasn’t a case where some few individuals profited massively and others lived in squalor, wealth disparity skyrocketed after it collapsed.
Are you familiar with Marxist Theory? You have a decidedly Idealist take, rather than Materialist.
0·3 months agohuman nature will ensure that it will never be successful
Human nature is to be kind and helpful. Humans are social creatures. We wouldn’t have survived for thousands of years if everyone said “fuck you got mine”.
Even if that were true, you are saying we should continue with the system that rewards stuff like greed, rather than try to have a system that doesn’t. “Human nature” is an argument for socialism/communism.
Vapid
I’ve looked, I see the exact opposite. Go back to reddit where you can wallow in ignorance without anybody noticing.
Russia devolved into capitalism. Funding a military is incredibly expensive and necessary when a communist country wants to exist in a world with the United States. This creates a militant economy that must be centrally governed to coordinate this military might. True democratic socialism is impossible as long as the United States exists as an imperialist force.
True democratic socialism is impossible as long as the United States exists as an imperialist force.
1, That’s silly, there’s tons of democratic socialist countries that are doing just fine - today! Bolivia, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Canada, the Netherlands, Spain, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand - think the US fucks with their way of governing?
2, the USSR was never a type of democratic socialism. Period. They literally called it ‘soviet democracy’ distinctly, and it meant something WILDLY different that the kinds of democratic socialism we see in the above listed countries.
Your premise is faulty, built upon an imagined soviet union that did not practice the tenants you’re endorsing.
None of those are socialist countries. They’re all capitalist
I guess you can stick your head into the ground and pretend democratic socialism isn’t a thing.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/top-15-democratic-socialist-countries-181857008.html
it’s stupid, but stupidity is always an option.
Of course, if you just toss these countries’ accomplishments away, you’re really just undermining the entire premise, because without these successes the record of ‘socialism’ gets a whole fucking lot worse.
lol
You’re citing a capitalist finance website to prove your point about socialism. You seem to be confused between social democracy and democratic socialism. I understand because they seem so similar that they must be basically the same thing, right? Nope.
The Nordic model is a form of social democracy. They take many of the benefits that socialism provides and builds them into a capitalist economy. Democratic socialism is an actual form of a worker owned an operated economy.
If you’re ever in doubt, ask the question, “who owns the means of production?” If the answer is huge megacorporations and wealthy billionaires, then it’s a capitalist economy. If the answer is the working class, it’s socialist.
Well I’m sure it was explained why but tell me about the benefits of Nazi Germany. I’ll wait. 🤔
Nazi Germany, the capitalist country? Did you comment on the correct post? Are you confusing fascism with communism?
Why would anyone espousing the benefits of Communism support a fascist, anti-Communist state of Nazi Germany?
What do you love about communism?
Primarily, the fact that it solves the contradictions within Capitalism and empowers the Working Class. It’s the only way forward for Humanity.
Like the great rule Mao Zedong right? Kim Jong II was a great demonstration of the wonders of communism right?! 😁
Mao was a mixed bag. Life expectancy was doubled under Mao, and land was near totally equally redistributed among the peasantry from the previous landlords, but the Cultural Revolution was a mess and he was rightly removed from power.
The Kim family is fairly mixed, though we must consider that the DPRK was bombed into oblivion by the US and took decades to recover, and are doing much better now. Not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but better than the majority of Capitalist countries in the Global South.
Oh, please. Excuses.The Soviet was great to according to you too right? Pol Pot loved kittens?
The USSR drastically reduced wealth inequality:
Additionally, they went from pre-industrial feudalism to space in half a century, had free healthcare and university-level education, doubled life-expectancy, had more vacation days than the US, and earlier retirement ages than the US. Read Blackshirts and Reds.
Pol Pot was a US-backed fascist that denounced Marxism and was stopped by Communist Vietnam, so no, Pol Pot was a monster and the US’ support for genocide was once again stopped by Communists.
So we can say the same thing about climate change, COVID, etc.
You can go have fun living in a communist country though. God speed.
So we can say the same thing about climate change, COVID, etc.
We cannot.
You can go have fun living in a communist country though. God speed.
Thankfully, the US will collapse eventually, and Socialism will grow exponentially once Imperialism as a function of developed Monopoly Capitalism is ended.
what communist country?
If your username ends in 88 then communism is bad for you, yes.
There is verifiable evidence of climate change that anyone could go and recreate for themselves so that is not the same thing.
There is verifiable evidence that communism is bad in every way.
I’m not saying communism is good or bad but there has never existed a real form of communism to even test. If one points to Russia as an example then they have to explaine how Russia was supposed to be classless yet it had clearly defined classes of enormous economic disparity… in direct violation with the very foundation of communism.
The USSR was Communist by ideology, Socialist in structure. It was attempting to build Communism. The USSR did have bourgeois elements, especially as it liberalized closer to its dissolution, but this alone does not make it “direct violation with the very foundation of Communism.”
I encourage you to read Marx, Engels, and Lenin, and not just wikipedia definitions of Communism.
You failed to mention rife and extreme corruption. High class wealth disparity coupled with corruption… how could this ever be used to treat the validity of communism? Personally I do not believe it can ever exist. Humans wouldn’t allow it thanks to human nature.
The USSR was far less corrupt than the previous Tsarist system and the future Capitalist Russian Federation. Additionally, there was far lower wealth disparity in the USSR than in Tsarist Russia or the Capitalist Russian Federation, as shown in this figure:
how could this ever be used to treat the validity of communism?
Because life expectancy doubled, the USSR went from pre-industrial feudalism to space in half a century, literacy rates skyrocketed, home ownership skyrocketed, healthcare and university-level education were free, and the USSR had more vacation days than the US, with lower retirement ages. Read Blackshirts and Reds if you don’t believe me.
Personally I do not believe it can ever exist. Humans wouldn’t allow it thanks to human nature.
This is idealism, and contradicts history and science. What is considered “Human Nature” changes alongside technological development and Mode of Production.
You still cannot compare testing the validity of communism to testing the validity of climate change. Which is the whole reason for my initial comment.
High class wealth disparity
Compared to what? Real r/SocialismIsCapitalism moment.
Humans wouldn’t allow it thanks to human nature.
Say the line Bart!
It’s human nature.
\o/ \o/ \o/These comments are rife with capitalist realism.
So basically everyone who is down voting me like an idiot is in support of communism?
I was saying there is proof climate change and COVID were real, and there is proof that communism is bad.
Tell me more about that “proof” you are refering to
This is literally on .ml, why are liberals flooding the comments.
Why are liberals on a decentralized platform anyway? Surely the free market has provided adequate platforms for everyone’s needs
The Liberals on instances like Lemmy.world are too ideological to stay on Reddit, but have read no Marxist Theory and have not correctly identified the reasons why Reddit went wrong, and was always destined to go wrong. If they were Leftists, they would join an instance that doesn’t defederate with Leftists as policy.
That’s why Lemmy.world is just Reddit 2.
Reddit took away their precious apps, that’s the only reason. They have no problems at all with its western-supremacist political aims.
Don’t cheer for Communism (or China) , means to be anti-leftist??
Since when?
Yes.
Since the Paris Commune.
Lemmy.world directly opposes Marxism, and Marxist instances. That’s an anti-Leftist stance. Liberalism is the status quo, which is Right-Wing.
I don’t agree. Lemmy.world opposed (very)exaggerated extremism of all the kind so far. One of the first post i’ve read on lemmy one year ago was about the defederation of some nazi instances. Nothing is perfect but calling lemmy.world anti-Leftist is a bit of a stretch.
Nothing is perfect but calling lemmy.world anti-Leftist is a bit of a stretch.
Not if you have rigorous definitions of terms. You can’t call yourself a leftist and be anti-communist. The desire to abolish capitalism and move to a communist society is the defining trait of the left. The only distinction between tendencies is the method they wish to pursue that goal.
The problem with debates like this is that the only people participating in it who actually know what they’re talking about are the communists.
Lemmy.world is explicitly against Marxism, they defederated from Lemmygrad and Hexbear because of this, and sabre-rattle about defederating from even Lemmy.ml. This is anti-Marxism, plain and simple.
Be happy the liberals are allowed to see this
If .worlders could see hexbear and lemmygrad, they’d have an aneurysm. But then some of them would recover and look further into it and realize the commies are right. But that is of course why they’re not allowed to see it, as you said.
The western-supremacists literally can’t keep their mouths shut, when given a chance to denounce any country they consider “barbarian”.
We are federated to liberal instances
It’s worse when you say you’re a Communist or say Communism is good, and people agree, but when you advocate for AES or advocate for standard Marxist theory the same people flip on you and call you brainwashed.
I haven’t gotten that far with people yet. I have only met people who say “no communism” but “socialism” or “Democratic socialism” or “social democracy”
I find it’s valuable to push people on the whole concept of democracy and getting them to understand that politics is about organization of the economy first and foremost. The key question is why we work in the first place and who decides on what the purpose of work is. If people believe in democracy then it necessarily has to extend to organization of labor as well. Having a democracy where a handful of oligarchs decide why and how people work is a farce.
There are two kinds of deviations on the left, right-deviations (aka opportunists) that are succdems and such, basically defending capitalism and always siding with libs against communists, and the left-deviations (also called ultras, leftcoms etc. often including anarchism) who refuse to acknowledge every real-world attempt at socialism as “not real communism”, “statism”, “authoritarianism”, “state capitalism” etc. because real world has a habit of clashing with their ideals.
Some short reading.If you want to met those latter people, probably just wait for the answers for my comment here, since there’s many of them here on fediverse.
This is like the opposite experience I had. Everyone said capitalism is bad and I get down voted to die if I say I disagree.
Yeah but that’s based
Communism in theory is amazing, but in reality no such thing can exist, since our species are not able of this kind of cooperation. Socialism on the other hand is pretty much possible, but we have a long way to accomplish that.
Man living in city thinks humans can’t cooperate.
Humans can’t cooperate just like we can’t walk on two legs and use tools. It’s just against the natural order
This is Idealism, Human Nature changes alongside Mode of Production.
What do you believe Communism and Socialism are, and why Communism is impossible yet Socialism is?
Speaking of brainwashing: “Human nature is defined by our current economic mode of production”
“But… but… communism had never been tried!”
“That wasn’t real communism!”
“Read the theory!”
“Communism is the solution to climate change.”— proceeds to industrialise Aral Sea leading to shrinkage; and built the Three Gorges Dam leading to the massive deforestation and loss of biodiversity in flooded lands
- China 9 years ahead of schedule on meeting its Paris agreement climate change goals.
- China has large, state-funded. programs to combat desertification
Meanwhile the US alternates having a climate-change denier hold its highest office. Also it’s military is currently the world’s largest polluter.
Do you have any sources on this aria sea and three gorges dam business?
Do you have any sources on this aria sea and three gorges dam business?
Feigns to never heard about this “business” and asked for “source”. Like Tianamen right?
Communism, the movement, has been tried and is continued to be tried. Communism, the end status of a global worker Republic devoid of class antagonisms, has never been reached. These are completely acceptable and compatible statements.
This brings us to the third: read theory so you don’t think this is some “gotcha” anymore.
And what empirically happened every time communism has been tried?
Large increases in home ownership, literacy rates, life expectancy, democratization, and quality of life as opposed to previous conditions.
Large home ownership with poor quality.
Literacy rates achieved just as in democratic country.
Yes, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is democratic. “It’s in the name.”
Quality of life: you have to wait seven years to receive a car and long bread lines.
Life expectancy: shorter if the centralised authorirty did not artificially create famine and don’t send you to gulag or re-education camp
AES states are democratic. Study the structures themselves.
The quality of life was far higher than previously, and continues to improve.
AES states solved famines.
Communist states are just as democratic as Islamic Republic of Iran. You can support any candidates as long as they are approved by the ruling one-party.
You can study the theory of the structure but then ignore the empirical evidence.
The quality of life in communist states is so great that more people emigrated from it than immigrated.
Communism solved famines after it killed millions. Fewer people, fewer mouths to feed.
You need to stop repeating US state propaganda and actually study AES and Marxist theory. Quality of life improved over time, greatly so, and most former-soviets say they are worse off now than in the USSR.
Famines were commonplace in Russia and China before they became Socialist, then they had their last major famines before stabilizing production and ending famine.
Read Blackshirts and Reds.
That warning is the sickest burn I’ve seen on Wikipedia.
I especially love that it had to be split out to differentiate the latin american regime changes. They may as well just place a big H1 heading stating “THE U.S. IS EVIL”
Are you going somewhere with that? Or is this straight up a whataboutism?
the U.S. performed at least 81 overt and covert known interventions in foreign elections from 1946 to 2000
the Soviet Union and Russia engaged in 36 interventions in foreign elections from 1946 to 2000
2.25 times as many interventions, and many of them were wars no where close to US land, while many of the USSR ones listed are directly related to defeating the Nazis and Imperial Japan in WW2.
During World War II, the Soviet Union helped overthrow many puppet regimes of Nazi Germany and the Empire of Japan, including in East Asia and much of Europe. Soviet forces were also instrumental in ending the rule of Adolf Hitler over Germany.
Related meme:
Thankfully we have other ways of coming to an understanding about China. Particularly the media, especially international media.
That often depends on whether one is talking about imperial core media or peripheral media. Yet another case of alwaysthesamemap.
As you add more parties into your conspiracy it gets harder to justify the existence of said conspiracy, no?
I’m sure there’s a coherent statement in there, waiting to get out.
But now that you’ve edited your previous comment to add mention of the Uyghur people, let’s talk about that:
The US tried to foment division in China by funding and organizing terrorist cells in Xinjiang, and once those efforts failed, it concocted and promoted a genocide narrative. Antony Blinken is still pushing this slop, just last month.
- The Xinjiang Genocide Allegations Are Unjustified
- The Uyghur Human Rights Project is a product of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is the American government’s main regime change NGO.
- Uyghur genocide allegations
- American Debunks All Major Western Propaganda on Uyghurs and Xinjiang
- US-Funded Uyghur Activists Train as Soldiers of Empire
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
.
The blueprint of regime change operationsWe see here for example the evolution of public opinion in regards to China. In 2019, the ‘Uyghur genocide’ was broken by the media (Buzzfeed, of all outlets). In this story, we saw the machine I described up until now move in real time. Suddenly, newspapers, TV, websites were all flooded with stories about the ‘genocide’, all day, every day. People whom we’d never heard of before were brought in as experts — Adrian Zenz, to name just one; a man who does not even speak a word of Chinese.
Organizations were suddenly becoming very active and important. The World Uyghur Congress, a very serious-sounding NGO, is actually an NED Front operating out of Germany […]. From their official website, they declare themselves to be the sole legitimate representative of all Uyghurs — presumably not having asked Uyghurs in Xinjiang what they thought about that.
The WUC also has ties to the Grey Wolves, a fascist paramilitary group in Turkey, through the father of their founder, Isa Yusuf Alptekin.
Documents came out from NGOs to further legitimize the media reporting. This is how a report from the very professional-sounding China Human Rights Defenders (CHRD) came to exist. They claimed ‘up to 1.3 million’ Uyghurs were imprisoned in camps. What they didn’t say was how they got this number: they interviewed a total of 10 people from rural Xinjiang and asked them to estimate how many people might have been taken away. They then extrapolated the guesstimates they got and arrived at the 1.3 million figure.
Sanctions were enacted against China — Xinjiang cotton for example had trouble finding buyers after Western companies were pressured into boycotting it. Instead of helping fight against the purported genocide, this act actually made life more difficult for the people of Xinjiang who depend on this trade for their livelihood (as we all do depend on our skills to make a livelihood).
Any attempt China made to defend itself was met with more suspicion. They invited a UN delegation which was blocked by the US. The delegation eventually made it there, but three years later. The Arab League also visited Xinjiang and actually commended China on their policies — aimed at reducing terrorism through education and social integration, not through bombing like we tend to do in the West.
Oh AND, speaking of the periphery: Isn’t it strange how almost no predominantly-Muslim country has signed up for these supposed Uyghur human rights violations? It’s largely the imperial core countries that have. Is it because Muslims don’t value human life—even those of their fellow Muslims—or is it because it’s largely bullshit?
https://twitter.com/un_hrc/status/1578003299827171330#HRC51 | Draft resolution A/HRC/51/L.6 on holding a debate on the situation of human rights in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of #China, was REJECTED.
Afaik the only majority muslim country that support the western lies campaign about Xinjiang is Albania because they so much want to be admitted to EU, that in the process they gave up their every potential bargaining chip and never even once looked at Turkey to compare and assess their chances.
Which international media? I’m guessing you mean media based in the US and US allies if you’re anti-china
Luckily most countries don’t believe the lies the US is trying to spread about China.
The lies the US spread about china… which are those? Just curious.
Many, like the exploding helmets thing, or the idea of Xi being an unaccountable dictator.
Should be easily proven by giving an example of Xi being held to account.
For what exactly?
Meanwhile in burgerland, Obama dropped an average of 60 bombs on north africa and the middle east every single day during his presidency. Have the US people held him to account, and have him face a war crimes tribunal for this atrocity against humanity?
For what exactly?
Anything. One example of Xi being held to account disproves the description of an unaccountable dictator.
Obama dropped bombs
“The president has, in this capacity, plenary power to launch, direct and supervise military operations, order or authorize the deployment of troops, unilaterally launch nuclear weapons, and form military policy with the Department of Defense and Homeland Security.”
Yes, for these actions the president is accountable to no-one for 4 years.
Just take a look at any mainstream western media that mentions China and it shouldn’t take too long to spot a lie, it will probably even be in the headline. Even just the fact that it’s practically a joke-meme that anything China does that is unambiguously positive will get a headline in the west that includes “But At wHaT cOsT?!?”
But for a few obvious, overt examples: Uighur “genocide.” Spy balloons. Winnie the Pooh ban. Social credit scores.
Too many to list.
The US and China are rapidly approaching a new kind of media-driven Cold War, with the unaligned nations being the battlefronts for dueling propaganda efforts. The problem that the western propagandists have is that they’ve generally gotten really bad at it. Gone are the days of Marshall Plans and international trade deals. All the NATO states seem to know how to do is ratchet up their sanctions regime.
To quote Dr Lubinda Haabazoka, Director of the University of Zambia Graduate School of Business and former President of the Economics Association of Zambia
Every time China visits we get a hospital, every time Britain visits we get a lecture.
Every time the US visits they blow up the hospital
The US and China are rapidly approaching a new kind of media-driven Cold War
I’d say we’re already there even though it is largely one-sided.
with the unaligned nations being the battlefronts for dueling propaganda efforts
How do you figure? I’m not saying you’re wrong, just rather I don’t see too much propaganda aimed at other nations, rather it’s imperial core countries aiming their propaganda at their own populations for usual consent-manufacturing reasons, and perhaps China aiming a little bit at their own population but to a far lesser extent as to be almost insignificant in comparison. China doesn’t really need to manufacture any consent domestically because it’s not the one saber-rattling for a conflict. When it comes to peripheral nations, the west mostly just says to them “do what we tell you to or else” and China mostly just says “hey, whatever, let’s just do some trading.”
The problem that the western propagandists have is that they’ve generally gotten really bad at it.
Well, in a way. You’re right that all they seem to know to do is ratchet up the sanctions, but their method of propaganda is sheer saturation. Make sure that every mainstream media outlet is on board with the anti-China propaganda and steer all major social media such that “China Bad!” appears to be a unanimous consensus, and job done. And it works extremely well. The state propaganda doesn’t need to be very sophisticated itself at this point because the consent-manufacturing machine has been built, maintained, and well-oiled for a long time already.
To quote Dr Lubinda Haabazoka
That is a great quote and really does sum up the comparison of how the west and China each approach international relations with would-be economic partners. It’s a good demonstration for why any propaganda battle between the west and China for the approval of the rest of the world would necessarily be so one-sided. One of them has to lie and endlessly make up excuses for their actions and behavior (bullying and swindling) while the other can just calmly gesture towards their actions and behavior (equal exchange and genuine support).
I’d say we’re already there even though it is largely one-sided
When you’re in the belly of the beast, it’s easy to miss what’s going on outside. I don’t think it’s one sided, by any stretch.
The state propaganda doesn’t need to be very sophisticated itself at this point because the consent-manufacturing machine has been built, maintained, and well-oiled for a long time already.
The post WW2 Peace Dividend has largely played itself out, though. Our voracious appetite for extraction is costing us open ears internationally.
Like, nobody in Saudi Arabia or Turkey or Israel or even Ukraine really takes the US propaganda seriously. They’ve got their own internal propaganda that is far more compelling, and it’s often diametrically opposed to the liberal democratic line.
One of them has to lie and endlessly make up excuses for their actions and behavior (bullying and swindling) while the other can just calmly gesture towards their actions and behavior (equal exchange and genuine support).
I think it is a mistake to think Chinese businessmen and bureaucrats are simply beyond bullying and swindling. But they don’t have the luxury of the world’s biggest military to swing around, nor do they have this ever-growing arsenal of privately developed weapons that they’re eager to exhaust and replenish.
The incentives of a communist country are fundamentally different from a capitalist state. This allows Chinese diplomats to exercise techniques that NATO states do not have the political tool bag to deploy.
When you’re in the belly of the beast, it’s easy to miss what’s going on outside. I don’t think it’s one sided, by any stretch.
It’s true. my perspective is unavoidably limited by being in an imperial core country, but is there any evidence for how China is conducting a propaganda war against the US (or at all) anywhere near the same volume or scale that the US is against China?
Like, nobody in Saudi Arabia or Turkey or Israel or even Ukraine really takes the US propaganda seriously. They’ve got their own internal propaganda that is far more compelling, and it’s often diametrically opposed to the liberal democratic line.
Yeah, I agree. But that’s what I was getting a about the western propaganda being mostly designed for their respective domestic populations, it’s not produced for the sake of the common folk of non-western countries. Is the US even attempting to make propaganda directed at the populations of Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, or Ukraine? They don’t need to, since for the most part, those who rule in those countries are in alignment with US interests anyway. The liberal democratic line exists (once again) for the population within the core countries themselves. Like, the US doesn’t give a single shit that Saudi Arabia is a theocratic monarchy. Ukraine? Vassals of NATO, of course their internal propaganda is in line with the US. They would never even think of siding with China over the US and despise China anyway for not siding against Russia. Israel can’t exist without the will and favor of the US, they are a massive military outpost for the west in the middle east and are autonomous only so far as they are willing to be more openly fascist in how they go about doing what the US wants them to do anyway, the US in no way needs to produce propaganda to influence them. Turkey does at least have some differing interests than the US, but they’re still a NATO country and so far haven’t had the reason or will to rock the boat in a way that is pro-China and anti-US.
I think it is a mistake to think Chinese businessmen and bureaucrats are simply beyond bullying and swindling.
Oh believe me, that’s not a mistake I’m making. But as has been said many times, business interests (owners of private capital) in China are on a leash held by the state, in the west it’s the other way around. I don’t doubt that Chinese capitalists would swindle just as much as any other capitalists, but they aren’t the ones calling the shots, the CPC is. And the CPC has repeatedly demonstrated that they only want to do fair, equal exchange, mutually beneficial economics with other countries. They don’t need a massive propaganda machine to convince their trading partners that this is their agenda since their actions over the last couple decades are convincing enough, hence the quote you posted: “Every time China visits we get a hospital, every time Britain visits we get a lecture.”
The incentives of a communist country are fundamentally different from a capitalist state.
Absolutely.
This allows Chinese diplomats to exercise techniques that NATO states do not have the political tool bag to deploy.
I guess I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. Techniques like equal exchange?
why are all texts in different fonts
Now I love boiling down the pitfalls of modern western society into large statements like “capitalism bad” and “communism good” as much as anyone, but having dealt with a bunch of people dismiss good change as “that’s communism” has made me rethink how I talk about topics online and in person.
Now the accelerationist are gonna be mad about this for sure, but maybe you should start small, and discuss topics at a more local level. Then again the internet is world wide and everyone wants to talk about grand scale things.
Basically, I’ve stopped telling people outside of my direct circle that leftism cool, and instead talk about socialised medicine programs, pushing for support of worker owned productions and business, getting involved with coop housing. Lot easier when you don’t have to bump up against the red scare.
Now the accelerationist are gonna be mad about this for sure
You’d be hard-pressed to find accelerationist Marxist-Leninists. That’s more often found in anarchist circles.
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