News outlets are generally graded by their historical reputabilitiy. If you find yourself continuously fact checking it, maybe consider following a better news outlet (even if they publish more “boring” stories that aren’t as “up to date”): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources
I would also love to see a better place for keeping news outlets accountable for their bad publishing actions. Wikipedia does, but it happens on discussion pages and it relies on human editors who know where those discussions happened to string it together
Was about to post this list, it’s a very good overall quick reference. It correctly identifies most of the tabloids posing as “real” newspapers, too.
LoL. I guess manufacturing consent for wars does absolutely nothing to harm their credibility. This list is dogshit.
The New York Times has been a full-throated government mouthpiece since at least 9/11. At this point, Teen Vogue has more credibility.
This person thinks that Ukraine invaded Russia, FYI.
Yeah, but that doesn’t make them wrong and the NYT
This person thinks that Ukraine invaded Russia, FYI.
[…] that doesn’t make them wrong […]
Nice catch of their strawman 😉
NAFO bot has arrived to defend the military industrial complex with lies. Right on schedule.
I don’t even know what a NAFO is but sure. Everyone but you is a robot. Is reality even real? Do the snozberries taste like snozberries? Are we really breathing or is the air forcing us to live?
Yes, everyone who’s on here defending western imperialism is either a bot or propagandized to hell. Either one is fair to write off.
Beep boop
If you have evidence of them lying, you’re more than welcome to submit that on the discussion pages. I don’t know which articles you’re referring to, but given my historical knowledge of wars in the Middle-East, they likely sourced US mouthpieces or analysts, rather than making the claims themself
LoL. Are people unaware of the NYT’s culpability?
Acting as a stenographer for the state isn’t “journalism.”
He asked for sources and you just act superior and yet didn’t provide sources.
The sources
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_New_York_Times_controversies
Take those with necessary salt and tequila if wanted. One of them is literally “nyt is mean to apartheid musk”
If I tell him the sky is blue, and he asked for a source, am I obligated to provide that as well?
I’m not going to play along with bad faith questioning of common knowledge.
You’ll find “common knowledge” is surprisingly hard to prove when you’re wrong. Wikipedia is a big place, if you can find concrete evidence of NYT lying, you can do a lot of reputational damage to them (even as so far as getting them removed as an acceptable source)
Seeing a lot of bots defend Wikipedia the past couple months. Is that because it’s so easily manipulated by y’all?
If I tell him the sky is blue, and he asked for a source, am I obligated to provide that as well? […]
Imo, while not exactly proper science, a quick source for such a claim could be a simple color photo of the sky.
[…] I’m not going to play along with bad faith questioning of common knowledge.
Leaving aside the “bad faith questioning” component, how would you handle requests for proof of what you are calling “common knowledge” in general?
[…] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources […]
Thank you for sharing that link! 😊
Hard to believe that when I’ve seen many of the “historically reputable” sources on that list flagrantly lying and spreading pro genocide props over the past 13 months
Being pro genocide is an opinion technically. If you have a “flagrant lie”, however, please post it. There was another wanker in the thread who claimed equal grand claims of lies but failed to come up with a link showing an actual lie
So I read through this, and unfortunately there’s nothing concrete. Every error has been corrected, and the errors that remain are opinion pieces which can’t be listed as a source on Wikipedia. Due to WP:RECENT, this means no place where Wikipedia refers to the New York Times as a source will be asserting incorrect information.
This probably isn’t the response you want, but that’s the truth about their reporting.
Edit: If you still want to try and bring it up, this is what I had written in my draft:
The following article has been brought to my attention: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13537121.2024.2394292#abstract While the issues raised in this paper tend to focus on bias, and factual errors were later corrected in many cases (which should be suffice due to WP:RECENT), the section of "Misquoting Israeli leaders" refers to multiple errors in reporting from the New York Times that remain uncorrected. ~~~~(This is before I noticed the uncorrected parts are Opinion pieces, so I stopped)
You can post it here, but you will probably be shut down for the same reasons I mentioned above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard
I see your sources. I will check Wikipedia to see if there has been discussion on it, if not, I will bring it up and get back to you.
(On phone right now so I can’t)
EDIT: Will not be posting this on Wikipedia, see response in https://lemmy.ml/post/23416718/15472127
Well good. Luck with that, but my experience trying to get changes through on Wikipedia is that it just takes one person with an agenda to stubbornly go “nuh-uh” and there nothing you can do about it
I used to edit Wikipedia for a long time, so I know what you’re saying - but if you’re actually correct, you’ll generally win (may require pinging some other people who know you to come in to mediate)
News outlets are generally graded by their historical reputabilitiy. […]
While that’s good data to have, I think that any claims should be immediately verifiable. I think it’s a disservice to the truth and public discourse to rely on appeals to authority for trust in one’s published news. Imo, an argument is either sound or unsound — an atomic claim is either accurate or inaccurate.
[…] I would also love to see a better place for keeping news outlets accountable for their bad publishing actions. […]
It’s not immediately clear to me what you mean. Are you referring to increased transparency when a news outlet makes a mistake? Are you referring to legal action? Are you referring to something else?
Just a place where people can call out and crowdsource lies that news outlets publish
What do you mean by “crowdsource” in this context?
So I just got out of a conference talk from a guy that ran newsrooms for about 20 years and has moved on to other things. The last few years have been basically “get it written, get it out the door and fact check later if time allows”. These people working in these rooms have been cut back 90%+ but are still expected to get the same volumes of articles published as were when there were 10X the staff.
He said it’s completely impossible to do any verification with what they have to work with, and chances are the stories are written before the people involved are interviewed. That’s why he got out.
[…] The last few years have been basically “get it written, get it out the door and fact check later if time allows”. […]
If true, that’s terrible, imo. Anecdotally, it would explain a great deal.
Yes it would. As would the almost certain fact that you personally choose not to actually pay for journalism, despite criticizing it liberally.
While I don’t think the lack of quality journalism is all due to OP not paying for it (I have no clue if they do or don’t) but there is a lot of complaining on Lemmy and Reddit about paywalls which is annoying. The idea that people want quality journalism but get pissed off when those journalist and news organizations asked to get paid for it is ridiculous.
The hypocrisy and entitlement is infuriating.
The internet has destroyed journalism’s business model. A respected profession has been pauperized. Salaries in freefall, hardly any job security left.
And people who pay nothing (let’s be real, OP is paying nothing) add insult to injury by demanding a higher quality product.
And when we do pay for it (magazines, physical newspapers) it’s over half ads.
[…] The last few years have been basically “get it written, get it out the door and fact check later if time allows”. […]
[…] Anecdotally, it would explain a great deal.
[…] it […] would [also explain] the almost certain fact that you personally choose not to actually pay for journalism
I’m not sure I follow your logic. Could you clarify what you mean?
[…] the almost certain fact that you personally choose not to actually pay for journalism, despite criticizing it liberally.
Are you saying that one’s criticism of journalism is only valid if they pay for it?
[…] the almost certain fact that you personally choose not to actually pay for journalism […]
What makes you so sure that I would be opposed to paying for journalism?
News stopped being news when the 24 hour news cycle started. Now it’s just entertainment.
ITT: the justification for civics education.
Could you elaborate?
Enough with the spammy questions. I’m not going to convince you and vice versa, and nobody is reading because the conversation has moved on. Good night.
Enough with the spammy questions. […]
Spamming wasn’t my intention. All of my comments have been made in good faith. At any rate, questions seeking clarification or elaboration wouldn’t be necessary if you weren’t engaging in conjecture — which is rather ironic given the topic of this post.
[…] nobody is reading because the conversation has moved on […]
Well, given the current votes on your comment [1], I’d argue on the contrary.
References
- Author: @JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world [To: “If I have to fact-check the uncited claims made in news articles, doesn’t that make me the journalist?”. Author: “Kalcifer” @Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works. “Showerthoughts” !showerthoughts@lemmy.world. sh.itjust.works. Lemmy. Published: 2024-12-10T07:34:34Z. https://sh.itjust.works/post/29275760.]. Published: 2024-12-12T00:07:44Z. Accessed: 2024-12-12T07:09Z. https://lemmy.world/comment/13923341.
- The comment’s score is +1/-3.
- Author: @JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world [To: “If I have to fact-check the uncited claims made in news articles, doesn’t that make me the journalist?”. Author: “Kalcifer” @Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works. “Showerthoughts” !showerthoughts@lemmy.world. sh.itjust.works. Lemmy. Published: 2024-12-10T07:34:34Z. https://sh.itjust.works/post/29275760.]. Published: 2024-12-12T00:07:44Z. Accessed: 2024-12-12T07:09Z. https://lemmy.world/comment/13923341.
[…] I’m not going to convince you and vice versa […]
First, I try to stay open to other people’s opinions. Second, I simply wasn’t sure what your comment was referring to — I was hoping that you could clarify what you meant.
Yes. An unpaid one.
[…] An unpaid one.
Is that consequential?
It is… if you don’t have the time or energy to do all that fact-checking because you have to work yourself to the bone just to afford rent.
Legitimate news outlets do pretty thorough fact-checking, if only to avoid litigation
Are you saying that any claims made by “legitimate news outlets” can be trusted without cited sources simply because they are deemed “legitimate”?
Sure. Anyone can challenge a legit news source through litigation. How often do you think NYTimes is sent legal threats over factual questions in their reporting? Probably dozens of letters each week. Why do those letters never result in lawsuits with real results? Because the papers keep their records tight.
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Lol
It makes you a rational human.
There have been journalists publishing accidentally and maliciously false articles since the dawn of the press.
It’s healthy to engage in appropriate scepticism of all that you read, particularly that of the press. Fact check everything that doesn’t feel right (or anything that feels too reductive or simplified), over time you get a feel for who the serial liars are and who are generally reporting faithfully
[…] Fact check everything that doesn’t feel right (or anything that feels too reductive or simplified) […]
Ideally, imo, the news outlets could lift some of that burden by citing their own sources so that I don’t have to do their investigative work for them.
[…] over time you get a feel for who the serial liars are and who are generally reporting faithfully
Sure, but even then I would still like to see cited sources; without them, my trust would begin to erode.
No? For a start, journalists write news, are you writing it down in an article afterwards?
[…] journalists write news […].
If an article hasn’t cited any sources, then, imo, it isn’t news — it’s just conjecture.
…yes…but you do understand a journalist is someone who writes/reads news right? They’re not just sat around with sources for no reason, those sources are specifically so they can report news…that’s the point. What do you think a source is!?
I’m not sure I understand your point. Essentially the only point that I was making was that for what’s written to not be considered conjecture, any claims that it makes must be cited [1].
References
- “conjecture”. Merriam-Webster. Accessed: 2024-12-11T08:47Z. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conjecture.
inference formed without proof or sufficient evidence
Your original post asks if you’re a journalist for fact checking articles, we got to these comments from that.
Where do you think sources end? If I mention that biden is currently president, do I need a source linked? If 1+1 is 2, do I need to provide a source? Do I need to source the definitions of every word? Do I need a source that vaccines don’t cause autism? That 5g doesn’t cause COVID?
It’s hard to discuss this without knowing what text you’re referring to, and if I go back to check if you mentioned it I’ll lose my comment because I’m using an app. Some things don’t need sourcing because they’re accepted facts, like who the president is, basic science, simple maths, etc, but most important, the things that an article should always cite are the claims the article itself is making. I wouldn’t cite sources for 5G not causing covid, for example, unless the article was specifically about that.
[…] Where do you think sources end? […]
For anything practical, I don’t think it’s possible to give an exact answer to that — in practice, I think that, at the very least, making a conscious effort to maximize accuracy and minimize bias would go a long way. Imo, it gets tricky rather quick when debates of the veracity of sources themselves begins.
[…] If I mention that biden is currently president, do I need a source linked? If 1+1 is 2, do I need to provide a source? Do I need to source the definitions of every word? Do I need a source that vaccines don’t cause autism? That 5g doesn’t cause COVID? […]
In an ideal world, imo, yes, those all would be cited.
[…] Some things don’t need sourcing because they’re accepted facts […]
It think it, at least, depends on context. Personally, I strive to cite any claim that I make.
[…] I wouldn’t cite sources for 5G not causing covid, for example, unless the article was specifically about that.
How come? If one’s knowledge of a topic derives from a location, I think one should cite that location when discussing that topic, otherwise it’s just conjecture.
Same reason I don’t provide a source magic and wizards and fairy tales not existing. Anyone stupid enough to believe obvious rubbish doesn’t care what your source is.
- “conjecture”. Merriam-Webster. Accessed: 2024-12-11T08:47Z. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conjecture.
If an article hasn’t cited any sources, then, imo, it isn’t news
News are those sources for a lot of situations. Someone has to create the primary source at the point of something happening or existing. That’s a news article. This can later be cited by somebody else “As reported by Reuters at xyz…”. There exist other sources of course, which are, kinda, The News™️ in their respective areas of events. Scientific findings usually have published works as their primary source. Computer vulnerabilities use CWEs or something equivalent once made public.
What source could a reporter sitting on a street in a civil unrest cite? Signed, ID-verified, named and double-checked-against-birth-certificate statements from people around him?
News isn’t a primary source. In most cases its a secondary source. They ask the primary “what happened” or get a press release from wherever and report on that.
They can be a primary source if they are live on location recording something as it happens. In that case, only the video (or written account) and individuals are primary sources, the second it goes through the studio’s writers it becomes a secondary source.
Journalist is defined as anyone who writes for public news media. If op writes an article an publicly posts it, they are a blogger. If they post it anywhere that can be considered a news site (IMO, if their a own site is a news site, it counts), they are a journalist.
A good journalists is one who takes in many primary sources, maybe fills the gaps with some other secondaries and informs the public with the most informed information they have. Unfortunately corporate news has become an echo chamber of secondary sources with no one independently looking at primary sources. If it ain’t cited don’t trust it.
If the OP of the shower thought, basically fact checks someone else, then they are doing the work of a journalist. However simply doing a bit of work does not earn you the title, just like replacing a light switch at your house does not make you an electrician (even if you do it better then some of the “professionals”)
[…] However simply doing a bit of work does not earn you the title, just like replacing a light switch at your house does not make you an electrician […]
Hm, I’m not sure that that’s a fair comparison. If it is assumed that an electrician must be licensed in order to practice as one (and assuming that they can only call themself an electrician if they practice as one), do journalists have similar requirements? I may simply be ignorant, but I’ve not found any examples that a journalist must be licensed in order to practice. Such licensing feels like it would start infringing on fundamental rights.
No you don’t need a license to be a journalist.
My thought was more about the scale of the project. For a journalists, just fact checking someone online doesn’t make you a journalists. If you went out to fact check something at the source, compiled a bunch of evidence and presented it publicly, then you’d call your self a journalist.
Back to the electrician (ignoring license requirements), swapping out a light switch isn’t much, but if you learned how to rewired a whole house, install panels, ceilings fans, etc - you’d call you self an electrition.
And you’re right, the electrician is kind of a bad comparison.
[…] For a journalists, just fact checking someone online doesn’t make you a journalists. If you went out to fact check something at the source, compiled a bunch of evidence and presented it publicly, then you’d call your self a journalist. […]
I agree — it fits by definition [1], at the very least.
References
- “journalism”. Merriam-Webster. Accessed: 2024-12-12T01:09Z. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/journalism.
- §2.b.
writing characterized by a direct presentation of facts or description of events without an attempt at interpretation
- §2.b.
- “journalism”. Merriam-Webster. Accessed: 2024-12-12T01:09Z. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/journalism.
[…] Someone has to create the primary source at the point of something happening or existing. […]
Presumably the event was recorded, or the thing existing measured. Imo, these recordings and measurements would be what’s cited and reported on as novel information in a news article. I could possibly be convinced otherwise, but I think that the mere action of recording, or measuring isn’t news on its own — it must be published.
[…] What source could a reporter sitting on a street in a civil unrest cite? […]
Imo, footage, audio, etc.
[…] Scientific findings usually have published works as their primary source. […]
In that case, imo, the initial reporting would be the research paper, and the literal root source would be the data that they collected.
[…] journalists write news, are you writing it down in an article afterwards?
If that is the accepted definition of journalism, then you are right I wouldn’t fit (Wikipedia’s definition, however, does state that sources are required when writing [1]), but that isn’t exactly the point that I was getting at by this post.
References
- “Journalist”. Wikipedia. Published: 2024-12-10T06:50Z. Accessed: 2024-12-10T08:44Z. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalist.
- §“Roles”. ¶2.
A reporter is a type of journalist who researches, writes and reports on information in order to present using sources. […]
- §“Roles”. ¶2.
Ok how are you fact checking, are you finding people with expertise and contacting them or googling and using whatever shite websites come up as a source? If the latter, how are you verifying the veracity of those sources?
And yes sources are required but that doesn’t mean that’s ALL that’s required or you wouldn’t have newspapers or organisations, just some people calling themselves journalists that have a bunch of sources, but nobody knows what for because they’ve never produced a piece of journalism for them to be of use.
The idea used to be that you find a news source that is the most reliable. Now half the world just finds the one that confirms their biases the most, and their biases are fucking stupid after decades of lies and education cuts from various rich cunts.
[…] how are you fact checking, are you finding people with expertise and contacting them or googling and using whatever shite websites come up as a source? […]
It depends on the context.
[…] The idea used to be that you find a news source that is the most reliable. Now half the world just finds the one that confirms their biases the most […]
How are you determining/measuring reliability?
Fact checking, obviously.
Using what method? You seemed to be making a point that an “average person” isn’t qualified to fact check claims when you said
Ok how are you fact checking, are you finding people with expertise and contacting them or googling and using whatever shite websites come up as a source? If the latter, how are you verifying the veracity of those sources?
And yes sources are required but that doesn’t mean that’s ALL that’s required or you wouldn’t have newspapers or organisations, just some people calling themselves journalists that have a bunch of sources.
I agree that the existence of sources aren’t themselves examples of journalism.
- “Journalist”. Wikipedia. Published: 2024-12-10T06:50Z. Accessed: 2024-12-10T08:44Z. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalist.
When reading hard news from an outlet that actually hires journalists I consider that to be the source.
When reading opinion I definitely do a bit more digging, keeping an eye out for half truths. I wouldn’t consider this to be journalism
When reading hard news from an outlet that actually hires journalists I consider that to be the source. […]
For clarity, do you mean that you don’t care if they cite their claims?
They are the citation. They are the one reporting it as fact. I’m not saying to believe everything you read but they are the ones putting their reputation on the line. Opinion commentators can say whatever they want because it’s their opinion. Big difference.
They are the citation. They are the one reporting it as fact. I’m not saying to believe everything you read but they are the ones putting their reputation on the line. […]
I agree that it would make it statistically likely that their claims are accurate, but their reputation isn’t proof of their claim’s veracity [1].
References
- “Argument from authority”. Wikipedia. Published: 2024-10-22T14:01. Accessed: 2024-12-12T06:52Z. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority.
- ¶1-¶2.
An argument from authority is a form of argument in which the opinion of an authority figure (or figures) is used as evidence to support an argument.
The argument from authority is a logical fallacy, and obtaining knowledge in this way is fallible.
- ¶1-¶2.
- “Argument from authority”. Wikipedia. Published: 2024-10-22T14:01. Accessed: 2024-12-12T06:52Z. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority.
I’m convinced OP is a bot. I will not cite my sources. Eat my shorts T-1000 🤖
[…] I will not cite my sources. […]
I only recommend that you do, based on my own personal opinions.
I’m convinced OP is a bot. […]
I’m not. What made you so convinced?
