Misner said it was a difficult decision to vote for Trump. He said the point of the Abandon Harris campaign was to punish the Democrats for supporting Israel during its war in Gaza, which the campaigners view as a genocide, and he hopes the Trump campaign will be more willing to negotiate with group leaders.
Vindication feels awful here, honestly.
“I think the biggest problem is that your messaging to Arab Americans can’t just be ‘Trump’s a fascist, Trump is Hitler. Big, scary orange man, vote for me.’ Part of being a part of the American political system is being able to separate yourself from your opponent and lay out a better vision. And she did not do that,” Abdelrahman said.
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Negative messaging works, as much as people like to pretend it doesn’t.
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If you saw a literal fascist openly declaring fascist things, and your response to the milquetoast opposition is “Well, you’re not seperated enough, stylistically”, you’re not much more than a fascist enabler.
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In what fucking way is “Not fascism” not a better vision than “Literal fucking fascism”?
“She could have at least called for a ceasefire,” Khan said. (Harris repeatedly called for a ceasefire during her campaign, including during her Democratic convention speech.)
Ah, it’s just like being on Lemmy!
“Even in politics, humanity should be the first and the foremost thing to to be respected, to be valued, right? And [the] Democratic Party clearly, clearly, for an entire year showed us they do not care about human life,” Khan said. “They do not care about their constituents, how they feel about the massacre.”
Ah, yes, humanity is the first and foremost thing to be respected, which is why LGBT Americans have been served to fascists on a silver platter as a protest vote. Peak humanity.
which is why LGBT Americans have been served to fascists on a silver platter as a protest vote.
If you are queer and have any way out, get out. If you can’t get out, scrub your internet history as clean as you possibly can because they will hunt you down.
God I hate it but there’s going to have to be a new underground railroad for pregnant women and queer and brown people…
Harris didn’t call for a ceasefire. She called for both sides to voluntarily stop fighting and negotiate between themselves and that the US/Biden should do absolutely nothing at all to pressure Israel into making that ceasefire happen, while at the same time exerting maximum pressure on Palestinians to just surrender with zero guarantees of food or safety. In fact, she gave speeches that her support of Israel is unshakeable and they’ll give Israel whatever it needs, despite the majority of Americans in polling saying they favor conditioning military aid to Israel and Ukraine. She had a solid year of not just polling data but evidence that Biden’s policy was a failure and not just unpopular, and she just insisted on repeating his mistake. It’s like if a pilot is nosediving a plane and then a new pilot takes over but decides to keep flying exactly the same despite everyone telling to stop.
Gay people aren’t more important than Muslims
Gay people aren’t more important than Muslims
It would seem that they are considerably less important than virtue signaling to Muslims for many voters, yes.
Good news! To the Republicans neither are important and they would gladly see both groups disappear, so a vote for them and a refusal to vote for the Democrats was just support for both Muslim AND LGBTQ+ genocide! Good job everyone!
Good news, genocide is genocide. You’re just upset it might effect you now.
Affect.
And no, it won’t affect me, I’m a white CIS hereto guy living outside the USA.
I hope you sleep comfortably knowing that your protest vote or non vote will result in the death of more Muslims. I guess they’re not important to you either.
What other languages do you speak?
But no, it doesn’t stop with the US, and if it’s not stopped no where will be safe for you either. Mostly cis white men died in the Holocaust.
French is my first language.
I’m not Jewish either, as a baptized Catholic you don’t have to worry, I’m safe, unlike those Muslims and LGBTQ+ and Ukrainians and so many more which you’ve condemned to genocide. Hell, even blacks, Latinos, first Nations and Arabs inside the US are in even more danger than they were because of people who didn’t want to vote for the lesser of two evils or who voted for the Republicans to “teach the Democrats a lesson”.
Well that lesson will be taught at the expense of a whole lot of minorities and foreigners so fuck you, especially since you recognize that you just made the whole fucking world more dangerous for everyone.
Sorry my genocide is finally affecting you, and yes it will affect you.
Hope you stop being a far right lunatic and stop supporting them.
Entirely missing the point, this has to be a troll
Oh hey, the famous .world reason for mass banning of dissent and opposing positions.
Your response was a strawman. No one was saying anyone was more important than anyone else, you just tossed out that nonsense instead of trying to actually participate in a conversation.
You don’t have an opposing position, you just want to be contrarian and make outrageous statemens, which is just a fancy way to say you’re a troll. Maybe it’s famous because a lot of people like you troll and get called out for that nonsense.
But queer people domestically are apparently far less important than Muslims in another country.
But I look forward to the people who told me “there won’t be a genocide of queer people” telling me that the genocide isn’t happening.
They just shut put their hands over their eyes whenever I showed them this after all…
Sorry your support of genocide might now effect you
It’s like the literal progression of the poem and people still act surprised.
Affect.
I have a long history here on Lemmy. Let’s see if you can find one single comment where I support genocide.
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I never once bashed Muslims. This has nothing to do with Muslims. Stop trying to make it about Muslims.
Of course you are, it’s what your above comment is about, trying to make false associations as if that applies to my community here.
Where did I make it about Muslims? Quote me. The only time I even mentioned them was when I was talking about the “Don’t vote for Kamala” people caring about the genocide of Muslims overseas but not giving a shit about the genocides that were going to hit their doorstep.
It seems I was confusing you with another poster in this thread, and for that I’m sorry. You bashing “people like yourself” was ambiguous as was your comment putting down the needs of Muslims overseas.
Of course, I support the trans community and I think both our communities are about to suffer over the next few years.
Oh not this again, the flying carpet fallacy. Majority of American Muslims support LGBT rights, but that doesn’t matter to you because you’re judging me based on people in another country, who speak a language I don’t. Do you also bash American Christians because Ugandans lynch gays? Or do you bash American Jews because Israelis are terribly rightwing and extremist?
Way to push away your political allies who have been on your side for decades.
What are you even saying? I didn’t say anything about what American Muslims support. I wasn’t even talking about them.
I’m talking about what all the non-Muslims, many of whom never even talked to a Palestinian in their lives, said to not vote for Harris because of genocide, ignoring the fact that Trump was not only even more in favor of genocide of Palestinians than Harris, but also made his plans to implement domestic genocide very clear.
Because the important thing was their own self-righteousness.
Those people are not my political allies. Exactly the opposite. They’re the people who have participated in what is forcing me to flee the country for my queer child’s safety.
Also:
Or do you bash American Jews because Israelis are terribly rightwing and extremist?
You might take a look at my profile and see what communities I moderate and then think about asking me that question again.
It’s known as a rhetorical question. I was giving examples to show how stupid this double standard is, not that I was claiming you are bashing Jews. I can’t see your mod communities on mobile and frankly it’s not relevant.
You don’t have to be Muslim to be appalled by the carnage in Gaza or the rise of rightwing extremism now in charge of a nuclear armed state making aggressive wars on neighbors and oppressing minorities through continuous modern apartheid. Why are you so bent out of shape that this genocide shocked their conscience too? This wasn’t about self righteousness, it was about basic human morality; Biden actually spent his political capital and fought his own party and majority public opinion to accelerate Israel’s violence. He wasn’t just passively complicit but became an active accomplice and tried to make us all part of it by voting to continue it with zero changes or oversight. Browbeating the public to support it or else is not a winning strategy and he has only himself to blame, not any voters you want to castigate. A politician who can’t lead and can’t campaign and can hardly speak coherently in debates or policy discussions should be blamed for losing and not the voters. That’s how normal politics works. “Vote for the party no matter what” is not normal and you shouldn’t blame people for not sinking to your level of amorality or cynicism. You can’t blame Trump voters for ignoring his rape allegations and then get angry that Biden voters are wavering because of his inappropriate behaviors to women or his open support of genocide. It’s a double standard.
And despite this, despite breaking his campaign promises and shunning the community who helped him win last time, the Muslim-American community STILL turned out and majority voted for Democrats as we’ve done for the last 20 years. And we collectively lost anyway but you decided to make yourself feel better by blaming the victims here.
I’m still not talking about Muslim-Americans no matter how much you want me to be. Sorry. If you want to argue with someone about what Muslim-Americans believe, maybe post a topic?
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“He at least, at least came and spoke to the Muslims. He heard them and said, ‘OK, I will finish. I will end the war in Middle East,’ even if he didn’t say, you know, a genocide, but he said he will bring peace,” she said. “And that’s what the people wanted to hear, and that’s why he got the votes.”
He’s going to “end it” by rushing it to its conclusion you morons! Holy fuck! 🤦♂️
I don’t really see how the Uncommitted movement could have done anything differently. They had pretty simple demands: let a Palestinian speak at the DNC, meet with families of Palestinians, meet with our leadership. The Harris campaign ignored all of those requests, so in the end, they declined to endorse her, but still urged their supporters not to vote Trump or third-party.
Endorsing her just wasn’t an option, given that she did nothing to meet them halfway. If your spouse is abusive, and you say, “If you ever treat me like that again, I will leave you,” then you have to leave them if their behavior doesn’t change. Otherwise, you are just inviting more abuse. If you tell a politician, “These are the minimum actions you must take to earn our endorsement,” and they ignore you, you can’t endorse them anyway. Otherwise, you’re announcing your demands carry no weight.
The Abandon Harris (previously Abandon Biden) movement was more hard-line, and the Democrats were clearly too centrist and hawkish to meet their demands for an immediate arms embargo But the Uncommitted movement offered reasonable steps that the Harris campaign could have taken to win over Arab Americans, and she flat out ignored them. She is clearly to blame for not taking that offramp.
No. And fuck you for taking that position. That Uncommitted position doesn’t ‘punish’ Harris, it simply ensures that a demagogue would be elected. AND just coincidentally, the early actions of that demagogue signals that Palestine simply won’t exist in any significant fashion in a few years.
The direct result of your holier-than-thou’ position is that Palestine gets fucked 10 times harder. Good job asshole.
Well, A) I’m describing the position Uncommitted was in, not giving my own. B) Who the hell are you quoting when you say, “punish?” That word doesn’t appear in my comment, and I definitely didn’t say that the Uncommitted leaders were trying to punish anyone, so what the fuck are you talking about? Are you actually arguing with me, or someone you made up in your head? C) Your entitled, sneering attitude is indicative of why Harris lost; telling Palestinian that Harris won’t oppose the genocide, but vote for her anyway or else; telling teamsters she didn’t need them to win; it turns out that was a losing strategy, huh?
By the way, I actually voted for Harris, despite her floundering, directionless campaign, but since I’m not a complete idiot, I want to understand people who didn’t. Blaming other people for Harris’s loss might feel nice, but internet temper tantrums don’t win elections.
Anyway, I could also call you an asshole and tell you to get fucked, but honestly, I’d rather you work on your reading comprehension. You don’t seem to have understood (or at least engaged with) anything I said besides, “Uncommitted didn’t endorse Harris.” Honestly, based on your comment, I’m not even sure you understand what the Uncommitted movement was.
I will apologise for my aggressive response. I conflated your position with direct support for the underlying. That was a mistake and I apologize.
Re the ‘punish’ comment, I remain completely disgusted with Uncommitted due to their stated goals ’ a protest campaign aimed mainly to pressure Joe Biden and Kamala Harris to achieve a ceasefire in the Israel–Hamas war and impose an arms embargo on Israel’
No such political pressure towards the Trump campaign? I recognize that he isn’t the sitting president but even a casual observer can see that his presidency would likely be significantly worse for Palestine.
However, re third party or ‘none of the above’ voters, including any teamsters that did not vote for Harris because she didn’t beg, fuck em. I believe their fence sitting (at least partially) enabled this right wing smorgasbord.
Well, I get what you’re saying, but I think Harris’ failure to negotiate with these groups is entirely on her. The Uncommitted movement’s goals were very lofty, but their demands were small. They wanted State Rep. Ruwa Romman to give a speech at the DNC, and a leaked draft showed it was a very mild speech that didn’t even condemn Israel. It just called for an end to the war. After the DNC declined, they asked her to meet with families who’d lost loved ones in Gaza, and she ignored the request. Finally, they gave her until September 15th to hold a meeting with them, and she again ignored them, so they decided not to endorse her.
The Uncommitted movement didn’t create the problems Harris had with the Muslim community; Biden’s handling of Gaza did that. The Uncommitted movement just took that anger, organized it, and put it towards productive action. That’s what activist leaders are supposed to do. The Uncommitted leadership was clearly looking for any gesture towards the Palestinian community that they could take to their supporters, and Harris just wouldn’t do it. You have to do something to win an activist groups’ support. Endorsing her after she snubbed them wouldn’t have convinced the Uncommitted members to vote for Harris, if would have convinced them their leaders were pushovers.
And that sentiment, writ across the country, handed the election on a platter to the Republican party. Who will be arguably worse for Palestine that the Democrats.
Ultimately none of the Uncommitted arguments are wrong - I would go so far to say they are reasonable - but they presume that the alternative is better than the incumbent. Which I believe is manifestly misplaced in the 2024 election. All well and good to withhold support because you’ve been ignored, but this is a prime example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Anyway. I respect that you’re clarifying and I appreciate that.
There was also pressure on the Trump campaign too. And what did he do? Went to Dearborn and met with Arab-American leaders and lied about how he wants peace. Biden/Harris couldn’t even do that minimum. Biden detoured his campaign to avoid the area completely. Harris got a lot of the community back on board but then couldn’t bring herself to say that she would have done a single thing differently than Biden. She couldn’t even walk back Biden’s anti-Palestinian comments.
And you seem to miss the reason that the Arab and Muslim-American communities struggled this year; it’s the Trolley problem. You’re asking me to vote for someone who is actively helping murder people in your community, when asked about it he has no remorse and said he would do it all again and not even claim he will do better next time, and I’d better fall in line because the other person is worse. You’re asking me to actively vote to kill people in my community and threatening me with more deaths if I don’t. Can you see why this is such an unappealing choice? Obama killed innocent people in drone strikes but he at least tried to claim it was an accident and was doing better and supported us against the active bigots in the other party trying to ban our existence. Biden stubbornly ignored a solid YEAR of pressure, falsely promised he heard us after the primaries and then refused to hear anyone out. Well he lost by an even greater margin than our community and he has only himself to blame. He’s not even wallowing, he’s reportedly complaining that he could have beaten Trump if that awful Pelosi didn’t real his internal polling and make him stand aside.
People like you seem to think protesting against genocide is a bigger problem than sending billions in support of genocide. I can’t tell if it’s a matter of diehard party support above all else or simple delusion.
Just acknowledge that we were always getting one of two options. This isn’t confusing in the slightest.
To extend the analogy used in the comment starting this thread, it’s like leaving your abusive partner to live with a more abusive partner.
Why the ever loving fuck would you choose the worse option?
The choices were genocide or genocide. Apparently some privileged people here haven’t noticed that the genocide has already been getting worse and worse for over a year now.
Maybe electing someone unlikely to restrain them at all while simultaneously making shit worse in the US and Ukraine, doing a 180 on what little climate progress we’ve made, making abortion illegal nationwide, and reducing/ending social security will help.
There’s people in my community who lost relatives in Gaza. I’ve been to their funerals. Their families will tell you, “Trump didn’t kill my family, Biden did.” Please tell me how I could convince them to put that aside and vote for Biden anyway. We tried, despite Biden’s speeches on the topic making it harder and harder since he decided to twist that knife in deeper and deeper by giving such helpful speeches saying that he doesn’t trust Palestinians or that Israel has not committed any war crimes.
In the end, Harris got far more votes in my community than Trump did, but it didn’t make any difference since Trump won by a margin bigger than all the voters in my community.
Trump ultimately ended up carrying Dearborn, a majority Arab American city in Michigan, by more than 6 percentage points — a massive swing from Biden’s nearly 40 point win there in 2020. But most Dearborn voters also voted against Trump, who got about 43% support in a deeply split field.
Guess you’re not in Dearborn.
I wonder if these people just don’t think Trump is that great a threat or still haven’t figured out how FPTP voting works yet.
Biden wasn’t restraining israel at all and Harris kept talking about how she’d be a continuation of Biden. Now you’re bringing in a bunch of other issues that aren’t what these voters are focused on. Turns out you have to appeal to voters to get their votes.
You seem to be under the impression that all discussions between the two countries happened in public. Do I have that right?
As I said in the other comment you left, your interpretation of the analogy makes no sense. Your point would be valid if I were discussing Arab and Muslim voters who voted for Trump, but I’m not; I’m discussing the Uncommitted movement, who endorsed neither candidate.
Oh they only didn’t know whether they wanted to better or worse option. Still pretty goddamn stupid.
Yeah, also no, and it you’d actually read the original comment, you’d know that. As I said:
they declined to endorse her, but still urged their supporters not to vote Trump or third-party.
They knew Trump was worse, they didn’t want Trump to win, but they needed Harris to make a gesture towards the Arab community before they could endorse her; she didn’t, so they didn’t. She didn’t negotiate to get their endorsement, so she didn’t get their endorsement. It’s very funny that you’re acting like everyone else is an idiot yet you still don’t understand this.
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A perfect analogy where you argue to stay with abusive partner and you are actually a horrible person if you don’t want to stay with your abusive partner. The idea that your partner stops being abusive is also so absurd that it’s out of the question.
Yeah, yeah. People said this leading up to the election to. The plain logic of “we’re getting one of these two” didn’t seem to click with many, you included.
I’m a cis white male who makes pretty damn good money so in all likelihood I’ll be fine. That surely won’t be the case for many. I tried. /shrug
I bet you did wonders with your “stay with your abuser” rhetoric. With clever posters like you, how a could we possibly have lost? But i am happy to read that the election did matter to you anyway.
You can lead a horse to water.
You put this so much better than I ever could have. Thank you for this.
and you say, “If you ever treat me like that again, I will leave you,”
Finish the analogy to better fit this issue. You leave your partner for a MORE abusive partner. Why?
…except they didn’t do that. The Uncommitted movement didn’t leave her for Trump; they didn’t endorse Trump and actively warned their members not to vote third-party because it would help him. They just followed through with their threat to withhold their endorsement. If she needed their help that badly, she should have done something to win that endorsement.
If you live with an abusive spouse, but the house is literally build in an island surrounded by lava, A. Maybe your bargaining position is not that good.
B. Maybe, even if it’s super shitty to live with the abusive, its still better that swim in lava, so you bite the bullet and wait the lava cool down
Yeah, except the Uncommitted leadership didn’t tell their people to, “swim in lava,” (if I’m following this tortured extension of the metaphor correctly). As I said, they opposed Trump, and even warned their supporters that voting third-party would help him, they just didn’t endorse Harris because of her failure to make any of the very small concessions they asked for. She put them in a position where, as political leaders, there was no way they could endorse her without completely destroying their own credibility. If she needed their endorsement that badly, then it sounds like her bargaining position wasn’t that good.
Elabed decided not to vote at the top of the ticket this year and focused instead on downballot races.
Elabed said she feels crushed by the reality of four years of the Trump administration’s policies toward Israel
😑
And find themselves without fault?
not the voters’ job to make themselves buyable
that is all on the candidates
We are not talking about the voters or the candidates here. We are talking about the people telling voters not to vote for someone and then pretending they had no culpability whatsoever when that person loses. Thank you for proving my point.
People told others not to vote Harris because she sucked as a candidate
Not the citizens’ fault billionaires rigged the election again
I see you don’t understand cause and effect.
If you tell someone not to do something and then they don’t do it, you’re part of the cause.
TYpIcAl ShItLiB LoGiC /s
Yes let us hold blameless those who didn’t give enough of a shit to piss on America when it was on fire. Your true colors show here.
You already hold Biden and Harris blameless.
at the end of the day Democrats had their check writers to think about which is why they intentionally lost
Harris consistently had wins handed to her on gold platters and Harris repeatedly stuck her nose up at the platters
Democrats are not the party of the people or progressives but just Republicans with different coat colors on getting checks from the same places
Is your username a back-formation of Verdana, the font?
no just verdant
You have two choices for ship’s captain.
One wants to paint the interior a color you hate. Like, it’s the worst color you’ve ever seen. And she won’t even listen to you about changing it.
The other wants to run the ship into an iceberg.
Hope you brought a life jacket.
You don’t seem to understand WHY the Trolley problem is so difficult. It’s not a simple matter of “one side is quantitatively better” so you pick it. It means you are actively making the choice to harm people even if you think it’s better in the long run. If you don’t see why people found this choice difficult (and it’s universally agreed upon that one choice is better than the other) then you’re blind to the problem and haven’t actually spoken to voters. Talking down to people that they only can make one choice and that they’re stupid for not making it is not helpful and sets you up for failure next time too.
Talking down to people that they only can make one choice and that they’re stupid for not making it is not helpful and sets you up for failure next time too
I frankly don’t care anymore. I’m done with trying to talk sense to the senseless. If they want to let the five die and justify it to themselves as some “heroic choice” then fuck 'em.
We feel the same way about you. I went to funerals and know grieving families but that’s less important to people like you, willing to sell out your principles with zero red lines. Blue MAGA is not altogether that different than Trump voters in this regard.
You sold your principles to Trump.
And you sold your principles to a politician.
Trump. Is. A. Politician. 😂
If I hear this crap one more time I’m going to make the news.
What, you’re going to murder someone in an act of pointless violence? Great call.
You already have. Mostly in the “people regret their obviously stupid decision” category.
Maybe you hear it all the time because it’s the reality. You can just bury your head in the sand harder I guess, that’s an option.
BOOoooOoOoTh SiIIiiiIidEs!!!1
“I think the biggest problem is that your messaging to Arab Americans can’t just be ‘Trump’s a fascist, Trump is Hitler. Big, scary orange man, vote for me.’ Part of being a part of the American political system is being able to separate yourself from your opponent and lay out a better vision. And she did not do that,” Abdelrahman said.
Hey, maybe in 2028 the Dem candidate can run on repealing the national abortion ban. That feels like more than saying, “I WON’T enact a national abortion ban”. Yayyyy /s
“He at least, at least came and spoke to the Muslims. He heard them and said, ‘OK, I will finish. I will end the war in Middle East,’ even if he didn’t say, you know, a genocide, but he said he will bring peace,” she said. “And that’s what the people wanted to hear, and that’s why he got the votes.”
“Just lie to us at least”. Fuck me…
