Until everybody in the conversation understands the contents of that video, you aren’t at the point where you can have the conversation meaningfully. It changes the whole game.
And once they understand it, the remaining conversation may just be a mutual nod of understanding. First past the post is a third party killer, and not because the idiot populace lacks the will. The actual voting math itself is the problem, and ranked choice (or similar) solves the voting math problem in a way that third, fourth, fifth parties can exist and win, instead of debuffing allies and by so doing helping their enemies.
values voting is the solution. it’s plain as day that the reason party consolidation happens is strategic voting. a refusal to compromise preserves a diversity of parties.
You’re not bad, and I’m sick of the infighting. But denying the reality of the fundamental flaws in the electoral system is just ignorant. Idealism doesn’t work when the platform to implement those ideals is broken as fuck.
We all already understand how it works. Every single third party voter hears this stuff constantly, from literally everyone. It is impossible to not hear it while telling people you’re voting third party, even if you tried as hard as you could to block it out.
I understand already. The problem is that none of you understand or have any interest in engaging with what third party voters actually believe or why we reject your arguments, you just want to repeat the same BS over and over in hopes that we fall in line.
The only people who are helping Trump are Trump voters, because that’s how votes work.
That’s not how votes work. And I’m not going to explain it to you because EVERONE here already has. You have absolutely no intention to argue in good faith at this point.
In FPTP, any vote not for one, is an assist for the other. Period. End of story. Case closed. No more debate on it.
That you’re here to continue arguing with people illustrates that you’re not here to discuss it in good faith at all.
Therefore, I’d ask anyone reading along to just disregard this person as a bad faith actor and don’t engage with them any further on this.
So if I don’t vote for Kamala, I’m voting for Trump. But hold on - by not voting for Trump, that’s also a vote for Kamala! But I’m also voting for the person I actually voted for. Am I casting votes for three different candidates?
The way votes work is that they tally up all the people who actually voted for a candidate, and that number is higher than the people who actually voted for any particular other candidate, then that candidate wins. Third party votes do not get added to either candidate’s vote total. So not voting for one is not an assist for the other. Period. End of story. Case Closed. No more debate about it.
You say you know exactly how it works. Are you aware that the only possibilities for president are the Dem or Rep nominee? Your comments make it seem like you don’t know that.
Yes, I’m aware that those are the only realistic winners of this election. I’m not aware of anything I might have said that would imply I think otherwise.
Here. This is how your system actually works. Not how you believe it to work.
Wilson won with less than 42% of the votes because a third party managed to be popular enough to split the votes and stole enough votes from Taft.
This is what would happen if people actually listened to you. Thank fuck they don’t.
Those votes did not belong to Taft in the first place, so they were not “stolen.” They belonged to the voters, who can give them to whoever they choose. As a matter of fact, Taft got fewer votes than Roosevelt, so if anything it would be more correct to say that Taft is the one that “stole” votes from him.
Of course, it is impossible to say what would’ve happened if it were just between two candidates, there is no way to know that every Roosevelt voter would vote Taft or that every Taft voter would vote Roosevelt.
Uuuh, splitting hairs on my choice of words. The republican party split into two and so did the votes. The fact that I said “stole” wasn’t part of the point. And ofc you’re gonna say it’s impossible to know…
It’s just a coincidence that in 1908 it was 6.4m vs 7.7m votes (dems and republicans respectively) and in 1912 it was 6.3m vs 3.5m + 4.1m (Dems vs republicans and progressives respectively)
Yeah, the numbers stayed more or less the same except the republican vote got split. But yeah, that’s just a coincidence, we have no way of knowing!
I think there is a point that gets left out in this back and forth a lot. So because of the way our system is, only two parties currently have a real world chance at winning. And yes voting for one is not a vote for the other. Likewise voting 3rd party is not voting for the other. In any literal sense this is true.
The argument that’s trying to be made but is being done poorly imo, is that if you aren’t helping to stop a party from winning by voting against them (and for the only other party capable of winning) then you are actively hurting the chances of said party being defeated. So in this case, not voting for harris, who is the only candidate opposing trump with a real world chance of winning, means that you are helping trump to win, because it’s one less vote to the party capable of beating him.
When they say you voting 3rd party is a vote for trump, it’s not literal. It’s the effective end though. If not enough people vote harris, trump wins. They are talking about the argument from a single perspective, of defeating trump. You can make the argument from the other perspective of trump defeating harris too, that not voting trump helps harris. And both statements are true. If you don’t help a cause, you hurt it. And the same goes for 3rd parties. If you don’t help them, you hurt them.
Let’s take our current race as an example. If I had ranked choice I’d vote 3rd party, then harris, then a 4th party then at the very bottom trump. Since we have FPTP though this really just becomes my order of preference.
In our FPTP system without ranked choice voting, when it comes to a federal presidential election, if you aren’t voting for a party that can actually win (even if they aren’t your first choice), then you are increasing the chances for their competition. In our case the 3rd and 4th party are incapable of producing a win, no matter how badly we may want it. So if I want my vote to make a difference that helps push things towards my preferences, then I have to remove those two from my consideration. I could vote for them. But by doing so my alternative preference of harris doesn’t get a vote. Fewer votes for my alternative preference means that my lowest preference of trump stands a better chance of winning because there is now less opposition from the preference with a chance to win.
Any and all parties want you to vote for them. But their next preference is that you not vote, or at least vote in a way that doesn’t support their strongest competition.
If it were green against democrats as the top two in an election, and you are cheering on green. Would you prefer someone (Joe) that doesn’t want to vote green, instead vote democrat, a 3rd party with no chance at winning, or not at all? I can’t say what you’d choose in actuality, but in most cases, others in the same position wouldn’t care one bit if Joe voted 3rd party or not at all, because at least he didn’t help the democrats.
Sorry, a bit rambly and this is from my phone so probably littered with grammar issues. But that’s my general point of view on it. Most people view it as if someone isn’t helping, they are hurting. Thanks for coming to my ted talk lol
It is very much false, in any literal sense. When they count up the votes, they do not add third party votes to the other side. The argument you’re actually trying to make (or should be trying to make, at least) is that, despite being false in a literal sense, it is true in a metaphorical or in a practical sense. Otherwise, you are just objectively wrong.
The argument that’s trying to be made but is being done poorly imo, is that if you aren’t helping to stop a party from winning by voting against them (and for the only other party capable of winning) then you are actively hurting the chances of said party being defeated. So in this case, not voting for harris, who is the only candidate opposing trump with a real world chance of winning, means that you are helping trump to win, because it’s one less vote to the party capable of beating him.
No, I’m not “hurting” Harris’ chances. I’m just not helping them. I am not taking a vote away from Harris, if you wipe me away from existence, Harris doesn’t have “one less vote” than she would have otherwise, she has the exact same number. So this is also wrong.
When they say you voting 3rd party is a vote for trump, it’s not literal.
You just said it was literal.
If you don’t help a cause, you hurt it. And the same goes for 3rd parties. If you don’t help them, you hurt them.
Categorically false. If someone on the other side of the world murders someone, and I did nothing to help the victim, did I hurt them? No, I just didn’t help them. The baseline or zero-point is non-involvement.
In our FPTP system without ranked choice voting, when it comes to a federal presidential election, if you aren’t voting for a party that can actually win (even if they aren’t your first choice), then you are increasing the chances for their competition
Again, false. I’m not increasing the chances for their competition, I’m just not decreasing their chances.
Most people view it as if someone isn’t helping, they are hurting.
I have no idea if “most people” view it that way or not, but regardless, it’s not how I view it and I don’t think it’s a reasonable way to view it.
I think you might have misunderstood me. Like a lot. In the hopes you are intending to have an honest conversation I’ll try to address the misunderstandings.
In response to my first statement you stated
It is very much false, in any literal sense. When they count up the votes, they do not add third party votes to the other side.
If you had read me correctly I said
And yes voting for one is not a vote for the other. Likewise voting 3rd party is not voting for the other. In any literal sense this is true.
Which is completely in agreeance with your position on the matter. If I’m incorrect on this, then you are as well because we have the same opinion on this. :)
on to the next bit
No, I’m not “hurting” Harris’ chances. I’m just not helping them. I am not taking a vote away from Harris, if you wipe me away from existence, Harris doesn’t have “one less vote” than she would have otherwise, she has the exact same number. So this is also wrong.
If the premise is to avoid a trump election, then you are incorrect here. If the premise is solely talking about whether abstaining is helping or hurting, then you are right. But, the argument of “if you aren’t voting for harris you are voting for trump” that I’m endeavoring to explain (in a hopefully helpful or at least friendly way) is predicated on the notion that those saying that are working to prevent a trump election. In that specific scenario, which is the root of all this discussion, then yes, if one is not helping the side opposed to trump, they are helping trump, even if that help is by inaction. The being dead position isn’t analogous enough to be an accurate comparison because the dead can’t vote.
Next you commented the following
When they say you voting 3rd party is a vote for trump, it’s not literal.
You just said it was literal.
I can see how this could be misinterpreted. Those saying “if you aren’t voting for harris you are voting for trump” are not making a literal assertion that you are voting for trump. It’s intention is closer to “…you are helping trump” It’s not meant as a literal statement that your vote is tallied under trump. Likewise I’m not asserting that votes are literally being tallied for trump when you abstain or vote 3rd party. My statement was the exact opposite and again in-line with your opinion.
Next you replied to
If you don’t help a cause, you hurt it. And the same goes for 3rd parties. If you don’t help them, you hurt them.
Categorically false. If someone on the other side of the world murders someone, and I did nothing to help the victim, did I hurt them? No, I just didn’t help them. The baseline or zero-point is non-involvement.
That analogy doesn’t work because in that case you can do nothing to help the victim on the other side of the world and have no involvement, nor is there any group component. A closer analogy would be something like “Someone was about to be murdered but there are 5 people with buttons in front of them. If 3 of the buttons are pressed the person will live.” In this scenario which more closely resembles the scenario we are discussing, your inaction could lead to the person being murdered if only two other people press their button, the inaction of you and the remaining others resulted in a murder. It may have no impact at all if there are 3 people that press regardless of you, or maybe everyone is apathetic and no one presses, but your button press could also be what saves the person. That’s more like what voting is like. In the end, you may or may not matter. But you take a few “doesn’t matter” people here and there throughout the country and it makes an impact one way or another, especially in states where races get close. A local election in my own state was decided by a matter of 28 votes. While federal is broader it’s the same concept.
Next
Again, false. I’m not increasing the chances for their competition, I’m just not decreasing their chances.
Ehhhh, that’s a bit of a semantic wordplay that’s not entirely truthful because it only works in a hard literal sense. So by not decreasing the chances of the trump, you are definitely increasing the chances he gets elected by however small an amount that may be. If you just don’t vote, or vote 3rd party, you have decreased his chances to a degree because he doesn’t get your vote, but you do more by voting for harris, because you help her increase as well as not increase trump. It becomes a compound effect and so one could say by not opting for the compounded effect, you’ve aided trump by not opposing him as much as possible.
Lastly,
I have no idea if “most people” view it that way or not, but regardless, it’s not how I view it and I don’t think it’s a reasonable way to view it.
I say “most people” talking about the group we find ourselves in here. It’s a probably little hyperbolic to say “most”, just anecdotally what I’ve witnessed here. And as far as being reasonable or not I don’t have a real strong opinion either way here. I do tend to find that that’s not always a reasonable way to view things. In the position of the argument, “if you aren’t voting for Harris you are helping trump” I tend to think it’s accurate. But it’s fine, we don’t have to agree on anything. I’m not trying to convert anyone at this point. People are gonna people and at this point in the election cycle people’s minds are already made up. I was just trying to give some info to the position regardless of my opinion on it. :)
I don’t think you read the post you were responding to for understanding, you just read it for disagreement, because it doesn’t say here what you act like it says. Re-read it.
I can’t be baited bud. That’s not how it works. I have the strength of conviction to say something and stick with it. So I won’t be indulging you by answering your bad faith bullshit.
Not happening.
I’m just here to walk you into the light so people can see what you’re up to and maybe stop taking you so seriously.
Nothing more.
But please, by all means. Continue with your smug little ethics lesson. Im enjoying it!
They aren’t wrong. At least not in spirit. In a non-stupid system they’d be correct at every level.
Https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo
Until everybody in the conversation understands the contents of that video, you aren’t at the point where you can have the conversation meaningfully. It changes the whole game.
And once they understand it, the remaining conversation may just be a mutual nod of understanding. First past the post is a third party killer, and not because the idiot populace lacks the will. The actual voting math itself is the problem, and ranked choice (or similar) solves the voting math problem in a way that third, fourth, fifth parties can exist and win, instead of debuffing allies and by so doing helping their enemies.
the video learned the wrong lesson. party consolidation is the result of strategic voting. values voting is the solution.
You just completely missed the point.
You literally cannot “values vote” your way to a functional First Past the Post voting system.
And trying to get others to join in your misunderstanding of basic reality is actively harmful to your, and their interests.
Maybe that’s the problem. You don’t want to admit that you’re the bad guy…
values voting is the solution. it’s plain as day that the reason party consolidation happens is strategic voting. a refusal to compromise preserves a diversity of parties.
I’m not a bad guy.
Removed by mod
If you’re not a bad guy, you’re just wrong. This is very basic game theory and not actually controversial in any way
game theory assumes rational actors. it does not determine human behavior
Perhaps you should try being a rational actor
You’re not bad, and I’m sick of the infighting. But denying the reality of the fundamental flaws in the electoral system is just ignorant. Idealism doesn’t work when the platform to implement those ideals is broken as fuck.
We all already understand how it works. Every single third party voter hears this stuff constantly, from literally everyone. It is impossible to not hear it while telling people you’re voting third party, even if you tried as hard as you could to block it out.
Maybe someday you’ll actually understand then.
Your little party literally cannot win at anything beyond the local level.
Has your third party run for any local positions? No? They only show up in presidential election years?
That tells us they are horrible people who know damn well that they’re helping Trump.
I understand already. The problem is that none of you understand or have any interest in engaging with what third party voters actually believe or why we reject your arguments, you just want to repeat the same BS over and over in hopes that we fall in line.
The only people who are helping Trump are Trump voters, because that’s how votes work.
That’s not how votes work. And I’m not going to explain it to you because EVERONE here already has. You have absolutely no intention to argue in good faith at this point.
In FPTP, any vote not for one, is an assist for the other. Period. End of story. Case closed. No more debate on it.
That you’re here to continue arguing with people illustrates that you’re not here to discuss it in good faith at all.
Therefore, I’d ask anyone reading along to just disregard this person as a bad faith actor and don’t engage with them any further on this.
So if I don’t vote for Kamala, I’m voting for Trump. But hold on - by not voting for Trump, that’s also a vote for Kamala! But I’m also voting for the person I actually voted for. Am I casting votes for three different candidates?
The way votes work is that they tally up all the people who actually voted for a candidate, and that number is higher than the people who actually voted for any particular other candidate, then that candidate wins. Third party votes do not get added to either candidate’s vote total. So not voting for one is not an assist for the other. Period. End of story. Case Closed. No more debate about it.
Reading this thread is painful…
You say you know exactly how it works. Are you aware that the only possibilities for president are the Dem or Rep nominee? Your comments make it seem like you don’t know that.
Yes, I’m aware that those are the only realistic winners of this election. I’m not aware of anything I might have said that would imply I think otherwise.
Then I have to think you believe Trump and Harris would be equally bad and therefore don’t feel compelled to vote strategically against either.
Do I have that right?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1912_United_States_presidential_election
Here. This is how your system actually works. Not how you believe it to work. Wilson won with less than 42% of the votes because a third party managed to be popular enough to split the votes and stole enough votes from Taft. This is what would happen if people actually listened to you. Thank fuck they don’t.
Those votes did not belong to Taft in the first place, so they were not “stolen.” They belonged to the voters, who can give them to whoever they choose. As a matter of fact, Taft got fewer votes than Roosevelt, so if anything it would be more correct to say that Taft is the one that “stole” votes from him.
Of course, it is impossible to say what would’ve happened if it were just between two candidates, there is no way to know that every Roosevelt voter would vote Taft or that every Taft voter would vote Roosevelt.
Uuuh, splitting hairs on my choice of words. The republican party split into two and so did the votes. The fact that I said “stole” wasn’t part of the point. And ofc you’re gonna say it’s impossible to know…
It’s just a coincidence that in 1908 it was 6.4m vs 7.7m votes (dems and republicans respectively) and in 1912 it was 6.3m vs 3.5m + 4.1m (Dems vs republicans and progressives respectively)
Yeah, the numbers stayed more or less the same except the republican vote got split. But yeah, that’s just a coincidence, we have no way of knowing!
I think there is a point that gets left out in this back and forth a lot. So because of the way our system is, only two parties currently have a real world chance at winning. And yes voting for one is not a vote for the other. Likewise voting 3rd party is not voting for the other. In any literal sense this is true.
The argument that’s trying to be made but is being done poorly imo, is that if you aren’t helping to stop a party from winning by voting against them (and for the only other party capable of winning) then you are actively hurting the chances of said party being defeated. So in this case, not voting for harris, who is the only candidate opposing trump with a real world chance of winning, means that you are helping trump to win, because it’s one less vote to the party capable of beating him.
When they say you voting 3rd party is a vote for trump, it’s not literal. It’s the effective end though. If not enough people vote harris, trump wins. They are talking about the argument from a single perspective, of defeating trump. You can make the argument from the other perspective of trump defeating harris too, that not voting trump helps harris. And both statements are true. If you don’t help a cause, you hurt it. And the same goes for 3rd parties. If you don’t help them, you hurt them.
Let’s take our current race as an example. If I had ranked choice I’d vote 3rd party, then harris, then a 4th party then at the very bottom trump. Since we have FPTP though this really just becomes my order of preference.
In our FPTP system without ranked choice voting, when it comes to a federal presidential election, if you aren’t voting for a party that can actually win (even if they aren’t your first choice), then you are increasing the chances for their competition. In our case the 3rd and 4th party are incapable of producing a win, no matter how badly we may want it. So if I want my vote to make a difference that helps push things towards my preferences, then I have to remove those two from my consideration. I could vote for them. But by doing so my alternative preference of harris doesn’t get a vote. Fewer votes for my alternative preference means that my lowest preference of trump stands a better chance of winning because there is now less opposition from the preference with a chance to win.
Any and all parties want you to vote for them. But their next preference is that you not vote, or at least vote in a way that doesn’t support their strongest competition.
If it were green against democrats as the top two in an election, and you are cheering on green. Would you prefer someone (Joe) that doesn’t want to vote green, instead vote democrat, a 3rd party with no chance at winning, or not at all? I can’t say what you’d choose in actuality, but in most cases, others in the same position wouldn’t care one bit if Joe voted 3rd party or not at all, because at least he didn’t help the democrats.
Sorry, a bit rambly and this is from my phone so probably littered with grammar issues. But that’s my general point of view on it. Most people view it as if someone isn’t helping, they are hurting. Thanks for coming to my ted talk lol
It is very much false, in any literal sense. When they count up the votes, they do not add third party votes to the other side. The argument you’re actually trying to make (or should be trying to make, at least) is that, despite being false in a literal sense, it is true in a metaphorical or in a practical sense. Otherwise, you are just objectively wrong.
No, I’m not “hurting” Harris’ chances. I’m just not helping them. I am not taking a vote away from Harris, if you wipe me away from existence, Harris doesn’t have “one less vote” than she would have otherwise, she has the exact same number. So this is also wrong.
You just said it was literal.
Categorically false. If someone on the other side of the world murders someone, and I did nothing to help the victim, did I hurt them? No, I just didn’t help them. The baseline or zero-point is non-involvement.
Again, false. I’m not increasing the chances for their competition, I’m just not decreasing their chances.
I have no idea if “most people” view it that way or not, but regardless, it’s not how I view it and I don’t think it’s a reasonable way to view it.
I think you might have misunderstood me. Like a lot. In the hopes you are intending to have an honest conversation I’ll try to address the misunderstandings.
In response to my first statement you stated
If you had read me correctly I said
Which is completely in agreeance with your position on the matter. If I’m incorrect on this, then you are as well because we have the same opinion on this. :)
on to the next bit
If the premise is to avoid a trump election, then you are incorrect here. If the premise is solely talking about whether abstaining is helping or hurting, then you are right. But, the argument of “if you aren’t voting for harris you are voting for trump” that I’m endeavoring to explain (in a hopefully helpful or at least friendly way) is predicated on the notion that those saying that are working to prevent a trump election. In that specific scenario, which is the root of all this discussion, then yes, if one is not helping the side opposed to trump, they are helping trump, even if that help is by inaction. The being dead position isn’t analogous enough to be an accurate comparison because the dead can’t vote.
Next you commented the following
I can see how this could be misinterpreted. Those saying “if you aren’t voting for harris you are voting for trump” are not making a literal assertion that you are voting for trump. It’s intention is closer to “…you are helping trump” It’s not meant as a literal statement that your vote is tallied under trump. Likewise I’m not asserting that votes are literally being tallied for trump when you abstain or vote 3rd party. My statement was the exact opposite and again in-line with your opinion.
Next you replied to
That analogy doesn’t work because in that case you can do nothing to help the victim on the other side of the world and have no involvement, nor is there any group component. A closer analogy would be something like “Someone was about to be murdered but there are 5 people with buttons in front of them. If 3 of the buttons are pressed the person will live.” In this scenario which more closely resembles the scenario we are discussing, your inaction could lead to the person being murdered if only two other people press their button, the inaction of you and the remaining others resulted in a murder. It may have no impact at all if there are 3 people that press regardless of you, or maybe everyone is apathetic and no one presses, but your button press could also be what saves the person. That’s more like what voting is like. In the end, you may or may not matter. But you take a few “doesn’t matter” people here and there throughout the country and it makes an impact one way or another, especially in states where races get close. A local election in my own state was decided by a matter of 28 votes. While federal is broader it’s the same concept.
Next
Ehhhh, that’s a bit of a semantic wordplay that’s not entirely truthful because it only works in a hard literal sense. So by not decreasing the chances of the trump, you are definitely increasing the chances he gets elected by however small an amount that may be. If you just don’t vote, or vote 3rd party, you have decreased his chances to a degree because he doesn’t get your vote, but you do more by voting for harris, because you help her increase as well as not increase trump. It becomes a compound effect and so one could say by not opting for the compounded effect, you’ve aided trump by not opposing him as much as possible.
Lastly,
I say “most people” talking about the group we find ourselves in here. It’s a probably little hyperbolic to say “most”, just anecdotally what I’ve witnessed here. And as far as being reasonable or not I don’t have a real strong opinion either way here. I do tend to find that that’s not always a reasonable way to view things. In the position of the argument, “if you aren’t voting for Harris you are helping trump” I tend to think it’s accurate. But it’s fine, we don’t have to agree on anything. I’m not trying to convert anyone at this point. People are gonna people and at this point in the election cycle people’s minds are already made up. I was just trying to give some info to the position regardless of my opinion on it. :)
I don’t think you read the post you were responding to for understanding, you just read it for disagreement, because it doesn’t say here what you act like it says. Re-read it.
I can’t be baited bud. That’s not how it works. I have the strength of conviction to say something and stick with it. So I won’t be indulging you by answering your bad faith bullshit.
Not happening.
I’m just here to walk you into the light so people can see what you’re up to and maybe stop taking you so seriously.
Nothing more.
But please, by all means. Continue with your smug little ethics lesson. Im enjoying it!
You’re wrong.
No, you’re wrong.
Replying to me was more debate. So, as I said, you were wrong.