It’s not like you can just up and move when you don’t have money. There’s also the little issue of not being a citizen wherever you go, and then add in the culture shock, and family being far away. It’s no wonder people stay.
you need a few hundred bucks and a job that makes you $500 a month(there are many), or if you’re fine with teaching fundamental English a few hours a week, you don’t need any savings.
with that much, you can live at the level you’re living in the US right now or far above it, and then build off of there pursuing what you’re interested in because you don’t have any financial stressors.
“There’s also the little issue of not being a citizen wherever you go”
this is far more of a benefit than a liability.
do you mean a positive issue? I can’t really think of any liabilities of being a non-citizen.
“culture shock”
“culture shock” is an absurd debilitating elitist promise and symptom of jingoism.
it is a flimsy term with laughable connotations.
“you all ride bikes? but I’m used to a car, im so confuuused!?”
this is like saying people should never exercise because they might hurt themselves.
or that people should never eat food because they might choke.
Americans get “culture shock” because they are taught to be afraid of non-american cultures.
"oh no. chopsticks. however, will I overcome this barrier? "
“It’s no wonder people stay.”
it is truly a wonder how much Americans complain about their shitty, expensive livelihoods ( rightly so), and how much they’re getting screwed over by the education, employment, healthcare systems in the US and can’t afford to live, but absolutely refuse to engage with the simplest alternative.
in the same breath condemning their government and the systems that abuse them, they haughtily defend that abuse.
" what am I going to do, leave my abuser?"
Yes, that would be a savvy alternative to being abused.
You know what? Instead of just down voting you, imma explain. You highlighted exactly why people do not understand abuse.
Sure, leaving your abuser is the obvious answer. But the ability to leave your abuser is much more complex. If you were being savagely beat, but if you left your child starts to get beat, and they have restricted access to your child, how do you leave then?
Do you think victims want to keep being abused? No. Many times they can’t find an escape because so many things are controlled by there abuser. Money, communication, social lives, health. People dont leave countries for the exact same reasons. A lot of us know one language, and do not have enough time to learn another. What about those of us who have to take medication daily? How am I supposed to get that medication across the border and find a doctor to prescribe it. Hell, how do I even know if the medicine I take is available in that country? Research it? Can’t. Don’t have the time.
Critical thinking requires you to test aspects supporting and dissenting from your original understanding. Instead of “why x reasons won’t prevent you” in this scenario, find a single reason that could.
I can guarantee you that there is a long complex list of reasons why people are unable to leave the abuser just like they are unable to leave a country.
“Sure, leaving your abuser is the obvious answer. But the ability to leave your abuser is much more complex.”
I didn’t say it was the obvious answer, you did.
I said it was the savvy alternative.
I also didn’t say it was easy.
but I understand why you got confused, lots of people make the same assumptions you have.
as for your travel questions:
“What about those of us who have to take medication daily?”
you go to a hospital or pharmacy and get the medication.
If you are lucky enough to speak English, you’ll have no trouble with this.
“How am I supposed to get that medication across the border and find a doctor to prescribe it?”
I would get the medication locally, but if you want or need to take it with you:
to get the medication across a border, fill out a small index card stating the medication and its purpose.
If you want the doctor to prescribe it, if that is necessary, you go to a hospital or a pharmacy.
“how do I even know if the medicine I take is available in that country?”
If it is available in your country, it is available in other countries.
“Don’t have the time.”
then you don’t have this non-problem you are hoping is an issue.
people who need medication have the time to get the proper medication, which is usually much cheaper and easier to do in other countries because most countries have working health care systems.
“Critical thinking requires you to test aspects supporting and dissenting from your original understanding.”
your misunderstanding of alternative = risk is a very common fear-based symptom of hermetic monocultures.
mint ice cream is an alternative to strawberry ice cream.
that does not make mint ice cream significantly more risky or dangerous than strawberry ice cream, it is simply an alternative that functions the same way.
So now we’re starting down the road of throwing out logical fallacies to support your argument? Why don’t you just go do something else. Arguing with people here with long winded responses isn’t going to sway anybody anyway.
“So now we’re starting down the road of throwing out logical fallacies”
I don’t mind If you’re going to try fallacies next, but they probably aren’t going to fare much better than your previous illogical reasoning, which didn’t exactly pan out for you.
“Why don’t you just go do something else.”
I’m washing clothes right now.
you’re my down time.
“Arguing with people here with long winded responses isn’t going to sway anybody anyway.”
I’ve had the opposite experience.
although it is funny that you ostensibly think that while simultaneously keeping the conversation going.
If you want the doctor to prescribe it, if that is necessary, you go to a hospital or a pharmacy.
You can just walk into any hospital and a doctor will have time to see you and prescribe a medication for you? Or you can just walk into any pharmacy and get a medication without a prescription? Forgive me if I’m skeptical. What country are you describing?
If it is available in your country, it is available in other countries.
While this is generally true, it is not universally true for all medications. Where a specific medication is not available there generally will be similar/suitable alternatives (at least, in a country with a developed healthcare system), but a lay person won’t know what those are and will require professional guidance, meaning finding a doctor and waiting for an appointment. During which time you may well run out of your medication.
people who need medication have the time to get the proper medication, […]
This take suggests a lack of perspective on chronic/debilitating illnesses as well as poverty. I hope you never have to experience either. I don’t know about wherever you’re from, but in the US it is not uncommon for people to have to work 2-3 jobs just to survive and taking time off for going to a doctor and pharmacy could mean the difference on making enough to pay rent this month. Even if taking time off is a real option, for people struggling to secure basic survival needs (i.e. food/shelter), it leaves little cognitive space for more abstract/complex concerns. It may be conceptually simple to obtain healthcare, but in practice it can be anything but simple even if the healthcare system itself isn’t broken.
I am fortunate enough to make a living with only one job but I work the same hours that most doctors’ offices are open, which means taking time off work every time I or my offspring require care, which can quickly eat through paid leave time and isn’t exactly conducive to success in America’s abusive work culture.
Healthcare in whereever you are from may well be more functional than in the US, but I really can’t fathom that it’s as trivial as you imply for someone who requires medications or other ongoing treatment to simply arrive and get the care they need without potentially problematic delay.
“You can just walk into any hospital and a doctor will have time to see you and prescribe a medication for you?”
yes.
“you can just walk into any pharmacy and get a medication without a prescription?”
depends on the medication.
but mostly, yes.
I can’t think of a legitimate health scenario where the answer is no.
“Forgive me if I’m skeptical.”
forgiven.
I’ve heard these questions a hundred times.
If you’re haven’t traveled, you equate everything to the US, although things like the healthcare system abroad are meant to serve people rather than corporations so they function a lot differently than you’re used to.
“What country are you describing?”
most of Western Europe and most of Asia (I can only speak to the countries I’ve been to), and I know someone who lives exclusively in the Balkans who says all the countries there are the same as well.
“While this is generally true, it is not universally true for all medications.”
it’s universally true as far as I’m aware and have experienced.
you might not have the same brand, but it’ll be the same medication except readily available and cheaper.
“a lay person won’t know what those are and will require professional guidance”
yea, I assume it’s the same in your country? where some medications should be prescribed or recommended by a doctor?
“finding a doctor and waiting for an appointment.”
Google and maybe sitting down and playing on your phone for a half hour is a lot easier than you’re making it out to be.
“During which time you may well run out of your medication.”
how?
I can’t imagine this scenario happening.
Unless you’re talking about something you have to take hourly and you brought one pill with you so you’ll be without medication for 30 minutes?
these are such unlikely possibilities.
I’ve known known an uncountable number of travelers for the past decade, many of whom take medication, zero of which have ever complained of not being able to find their particular medication.
not once.
I hear “geez did you know X is only like three bucks here? It’s like $80 a bottle in the states!”
“This take suggests a lack of perspective on chronic/debilitating illnesses as well as poverty.”
couldn’t be less correct.
your doubt on what I’m saying simply demonstrates your ignorance.
I’m not using “ignorance” as a pejorative term, I mean that you literally don’t know what you are talking about.
chronic debilitating illnesses and poverty are characterized by financial trouble.
traveling takes away financial stressors.
I have known many retirees and chronically ill people who have regaled me with tales of how easy it is to retire in Vietnam/Germany/Portugal/Laos and so on because they don’t have to worry about the cost of medication.
financial anxiety isn’t completely determining their life.
“it leaves little cognitive space for more abstract/complex concerns.”
Yes, this was my original point.
If you don’t have any savings, if you’re a month away from living on the street, if you have healthcare needs, and these financial stressors are determining your life, traveling can fix that almost instantly.
then you can save up money, make a plan and go back to whatever you want to do.
but at the very least you’ll have breathing room, and what’s most likely is you’ll discover that traveling is way better than struggling in the US and you’ll keep traveling.
“…isn’t exactly conducive to success in America’s abusive work culture.”
yep, America’s work culture sucks.
most other countries have siestas and employee rights.
and are focused on draining you financially. every second you’re awake
Plus, if you’re outside of the US for more than 330 days out of the year, you fill out the FEIE, an IRS tax form, and you don’t pay income tax up to $120,000 per year.
“I really can’t fathom that it’s as trivial as you imply for someone who requires medications or other ongoing treatment to simply arrive and get the care they need without potentially problematic delay.”
That’s because you haven’t done it yet(and I never said it was trivial).
It’s difficult to fathom something you’ve never experienced.
especially when you’re living in the worst existing iteration of functional health care infrastructure.
you’ve grown up with excruciating waits and debilitating, financially disastrous healthcare your whole life, and you are surrounded by people who think the same thing and think it’s normal, so thinking about health care at all puts you in the mindset of excruciating waits, debilitating, financially disastrous, healthcare.
That’s mostly a US specialty.
ask anyone who has traveled for any length of time and they will tell you exactly what I’m telling you.
I’m very happy to answer these questions and will answer any other questions you have.
I’m going to just roll into Canada and see if they kick me out? You can’t just show up in a country and roll the dice. American is not a desired nationality in developed countries.
dependent on having a passport and the price of a ticket.
If you have leapt those hurdles, you can travel to any of 186 countries with the click of a button and anywhere from ten to a few hundred dollars.
Canada was $22 yesterday from Washington.
I got a ticket from New York to London for $23 and a ticket from Ireland to Morocco for $12.
New York to Hong Kong? $213 this spring.
I’m comfortable checking ticket prices regularly, but even if don’t plan at all, you can add 50 to 100 bucks to any of those prices and find a ticket right away.
you already mentioned you don’t want to visit North Korea and Cuba.
That’s okay, traveling to one country doesn’t mean you have to travel to literally every country.
Just choose the places you want to go to.
I suggest avoiding North Korean and any countries currently operated by actively genocidal warlords.
leaves you with almost 200 other breathtakingly beautiful, culturally unique countries to travel to.
So, question: You’re someone with a not-remote-friendly skill set. You save your money to travel - travel, mind you, not immigrate, so subject to the visa requirements of travellers/tourists (as this seems to be what you’re talking about - immigration is a whole different kettle of fish). The money runs out. What do?
Or - you’re living paycheck to paycheck with children. You try to save money to travel for the reasons you’ve brought up here. It’s not possible. What do?
No offence, but your account of travel as a solution here seems deeply naive. It can work for some, sure, but “just leave the country bro” simply isn’t an option at all for many, many people.
you do not need a remote friendly skill set to find an online job that will pay you a few hundred dollars per month.
so you get an online job.
if for whatever reason you only want to work in person, you can go berry picking in a lot of countries or harvesting on farms, you can teach English in person in 40 different countries immediately, au pairs, housesitters, a lot of countries hire seasonal workers.
so if you need a job, you can find one.
and if you plan ahead at all (oh no! I only have four more weeks of money), your overhead is so cheap that whatever job you get will cover you, you’ll be able to catch up and hopefully learn to plan ahead a little bit.
example: this month you somehow forgot you needed money. but you remembered in the last month before you ran out and you taught English for 10 hours and you got rent for the next month.
now you’re one month ahead, so you teach English for 10 more hours, and now? you’re 2 months ahead, and you have one whole month minus 10 hours to figure out what you’re going to do next.
or what you want to do next.
most travelers don’t have this problem, I’ve never met one that ran out of money without some sort of plan in place.
you have so much time when you don’t have any financial stressors, and there are jobs in every country, and a billion jobs that you don’t need skills for online, plus countless online certifications if you want a professional online job.
there’s no reason why you would end up in a situation where you surprisingly ran out of money.
“you’re living paycheck to paycheck with children. You try to save money to travel for the reasons you’ve brought up here. It’s not possible. What do?”
do you have a phone? easiest way is to teach English online for 10 hours a month If that’s all you have.
you have enough money to move your family after a few months.
“No offence, but your account of travel as a solution here seems deeply naive”
That’s because you don’t know anything about traveling, so you are imagining that these simple solutions won’t work because you don’t know how to solve these problems.
I do.
“naive”
I don’t think you know what this word means.
i know exactly how to travel immediately and indefinitely, I’ve brought other people along and taught them how to travel, I have simple practical solutions to any question off the cuff because I know and have lived this stuff back and forth.
I have as much practical experience with travel and insight into traveling as anybody you’re going to find.
you’re assuming that because you don’t know how to travel, other people cannot know how to travel.
but we do.
“It can work for some, sure, but “just leave the country bro” simply isn’t an option at all for many, many people.”
travel can work for anybody, leaving the country is an option for anyone with a valid passport and 100 bucks.
and especially if you need financial relief, It’s a heck of a lot easier and more liberating than borrowing money from friends or family or living in your car or on the streets, or moving back in with your parents.
people are afraid of traveling, especially Americans, because they live in a monoculture, they’re told that the world outside is scary and other cultures are scary, but other cultures are beautiful and compassionate.
other countries function better than the US does in most respects, and practically all livability.
Naive in the sense that it doesn’t adequately account for the situation of many people. Not everyone has the circumstances where they can do this. I can’t help but feel there’s some survivorship bias influencing your position.
I’m curious, though, if you’re up to illustrating (if not, totally fine): You are a single mother of two sons, ages 7 and 8, living in Generic State, USA. You have a high school degree and no post-secondary education. You have limited support, solely in the form of limited childcare, from family/the wider community. You make about $1600.00 USD per month, after taxes, working 50 hours a week at a physical workplace. You’re finding yourself with $10 left at the end of each month, after all legitimately necessary expenses (rent, food, basic utilities) are paid for. Let’s make it easy and say you have no debt.
What are you doing, and where are you going, if following your advice? It should be noted these circumstances are actually quite a bit better than other folks in the U.S. To be clear, I don’t think this is a gotcha, nor is it intended to be - I just want to see your approach here.
Edit: Monthly wage should be after taxes, not before, and changed $900 to $1600 (based roughly on monthly takehome pay at Ohio’s minimum wage rate, and I calculated for 1 pay period rather than 2 per month)
“Naive in the sense that it doesn’t adequately account for the situation of many people.”
this is not my naivety but projection your own: another example of you not believing in something you have no experience in.
as I’ve made note of: families can travel, disabled people can travel, minorities of all walks of life can travel, what are these circumstances you’re imagining?
some other theoretical esoteric scenario?
“…if following your advice”
Don’t worry, this is definitely not a gotcha, I have hired this person before.
TLDR: get tefl certificate, get job, buy plane tickets, sell stuff.
details below.
if we imagine that your troubled lady can only save 0.6% of her income, with zero savings, possessions, skills, experience, or motivation to leave the status quo but is forced to out of necessity, it could take them up to half a year to become financially independent the easiest and stablest way that I know the ins and outs of.
in real life, the destitute people I know got the certificate, sold everything and started teaching online or abroad in under a month, the abroad ones paid off $2,000 of their debt a month in the states within a few months while living very comfortably, and kept traveling and saving money.
but for the make-believe person:
right now, a full internationally accredited TEFL certificate for life is $30.
40 hour course, works out to about 8 hours of tests.
I’ve never seen anyone take longer than 12 hours with this course, but if we pretend they took the full amount of time with the limitation of $10 extra a month and 15 minutes of free time a day, she can either charge the course to a credit card and pay off the course and finish the course at the same time, or save up for 3 months until she has $30, then take the course and add on another 2 months.
I knew someone with zero savings, kids, and “literally no free time”, and they got the certification (which was 40 at the time, not 30 like it is now) and completed this course in a week and a half.
once you have that certificate, Google TEFL teaching apps and TEFL teaching platforms, there are dozens of places you can teach online with only a phone or a laptop if you have one, with the TEFL certificate she’s making $20 an hour pretty easily, If she’s terrible at technology and teaching and everything, that she’s making $12 an hour.
to get to the highest paying jobs in Asia, we’ll assume she’ll need the most expensive ticket, $300 per person.
at the lowest pay, she’ll need to work about 75 hours to make that amount of money to relocate her family, subtracting the costs of what she’s going to sell before she leaves and any assets she has, the sale of which which are probably enough to cover the entire cost.
so she works 1 hour a day, 2 months later she has enough to leave.
half an hour a day, 4 months later she has enough to leave the states with her kids.
The lady with two kids I mentioned was in Thailand maybe 3 weeks later, their international schools are great for expats.
another single mom I know just stayed in the states and kept teaching online, because at $20 an hour you’re making you’re making closer to $4,000 a month if you work 50 hours a week.
she makes closer to $30 an hour now, It’s been a few years.
I suggest voting with your feet and living in cheaper countries with better infrastructure.
Why give broken US systems more money if you weren’t getting anything in return?
It’s not like you can just up and move when you don’t have money. There’s also the little issue of not being a citizen wherever you go, and then add in the culture shock, and family being far away. It’s no wonder people stay.
“It’s not like you can just up and move”
yes, you can.
you need a few hundred bucks and a job that makes you $500 a month(there are many), or if you’re fine with teaching fundamental English a few hours a week, you don’t need any savings.
with that much, you can live at the level you’re living in the US right now or far above it, and then build off of there pursuing what you’re interested in because you don’t have any financial stressors.
“There’s also the little issue of not being a citizen wherever you go”
this is far more of a benefit than a liability.
do you mean a positive issue? I can’t really think of any liabilities of being a non-citizen.
“culture shock”
“culture shock” is an absurd debilitating elitist promise and symptom of jingoism.
it is a flimsy term with laughable connotations.
“you all ride bikes? but I’m used to a car, im so confuuused!?”
this is like saying people should never exercise because they might hurt themselves.
or that people should never eat food because they might choke.
Americans get “culture shock” because they are taught to be afraid of non-american cultures.
"oh no. chopsticks. however, will I overcome this barrier? "
“It’s no wonder people stay.”
it is truly a wonder how much Americans complain about their shitty, expensive livelihoods ( rightly so), and how much they’re getting screwed over by the education, employment, healthcare systems in the US and can’t afford to live, but absolutely refuse to engage with the simplest alternative.
in the same breath condemning their government and the systems that abuse them, they haughtily defend that abuse.
" what am I going to do, leave my abuser?"
Yes, that would be a savvy alternative to being abused.
You know what? Instead of just down voting you, imma explain. You highlighted exactly why people do not understand abuse.
Sure, leaving your abuser is the obvious answer. But the ability to leave your abuser is much more complex. If you were being savagely beat, but if you left your child starts to get beat, and they have restricted access to your child, how do you leave then?
Do you think victims want to keep being abused? No. Many times they can’t find an escape because so many things are controlled by there abuser. Money, communication, social lives, health. People dont leave countries for the exact same reasons. A lot of us know one language, and do not have enough time to learn another. What about those of us who have to take medication daily? How am I supposed to get that medication across the border and find a doctor to prescribe it. Hell, how do I even know if the medicine I take is available in that country? Research it? Can’t. Don’t have the time.
Critical thinking requires you to test aspects supporting and dissenting from your original understanding. Instead of “why x reasons won’t prevent you” in this scenario, find a single reason that could.
I can guarantee you that there is a long complex list of reasons why people are unable to leave the abuser just like they are unable to leave a country.
“Sure, leaving your abuser is the obvious answer. But the ability to leave your abuser is much more complex.”
I didn’t say it was the obvious answer, you did.
I said it was the savvy alternative.
I also didn’t say it was easy.
but I understand why you got confused, lots of people make the same assumptions you have.
as for your travel questions:
“What about those of us who have to take medication daily?”
you go to a hospital or pharmacy and get the medication.
If you are lucky enough to speak English, you’ll have no trouble with this.
“How am I supposed to get that medication across the border and find a doctor to prescribe it?”
I would get the medication locally, but if you want or need to take it with you:
to get the medication across a border, fill out a small index card stating the medication and its purpose.
If you want the doctor to prescribe it, if that is necessary, you go to a hospital or a pharmacy.
“how do I even know if the medicine I take is available in that country?”
If it is available in your country, it is available in other countries.
“Don’t have the time.”
then you don’t have this non-problem you are hoping is an issue.
people who need medication have the time to get the proper medication, which is usually much cheaper and easier to do in other countries because most countries have working health care systems.
“Critical thinking requires you to test aspects supporting and dissenting from your original understanding.”
your misunderstanding of alternative = risk is a very common fear-based symptom of hermetic monocultures.
mint ice cream is an alternative to strawberry ice cream.
that does not make mint ice cream significantly more risky or dangerous than strawberry ice cream, it is simply an alternative that functions the same way.
So now we’re starting down the road of throwing out logical fallacies to support your argument? Why don’t you just go do something else. Arguing with people here with long winded responses isn’t going to sway anybody anyway.
“So now we’re starting down the road of throwing out logical fallacies”
I don’t mind If you’re going to try fallacies next, but they probably aren’t going to fare much better than your previous illogical reasoning, which didn’t exactly pan out for you.
“Why don’t you just go do something else.”
I’m washing clothes right now.
you’re my down time.
“Arguing with people here with long winded responses isn’t going to sway anybody anyway.”
I’ve had the opposite experience.
although it is funny that you ostensibly think that while simultaneously keeping the conversation going.
You can just walk into any hospital and a doctor will have time to see you and prescribe a medication for you? Or you can just walk into any pharmacy and get a medication without a prescription? Forgive me if I’m skeptical. What country are you describing?
While this is generally true, it is not universally true for all medications. Where a specific medication is not available there generally will be similar/suitable alternatives (at least, in a country with a developed healthcare system), but a lay person won’t know what those are and will require professional guidance, meaning finding a doctor and waiting for an appointment. During which time you may well run out of your medication.
This take suggests a lack of perspective on chronic/debilitating illnesses as well as poverty. I hope you never have to experience either. I don’t know about wherever you’re from, but in the US it is not uncommon for people to have to work 2-3 jobs just to survive and taking time off for going to a doctor and pharmacy could mean the difference on making enough to pay rent this month. Even if taking time off is a real option, for people struggling to secure basic survival needs (i.e. food/shelter), it leaves little cognitive space for more abstract/complex concerns. It may be conceptually simple to obtain healthcare, but in practice it can be anything but simple even if the healthcare system itself isn’t broken. I am fortunate enough to make a living with only one job but I work the same hours that most doctors’ offices are open, which means taking time off work every time I or my offspring require care, which can quickly eat through paid leave time and isn’t exactly conducive to success in America’s abusive work culture.
Healthcare in whereever you are from may well be more functional than in the US, but I really can’t fathom that it’s as trivial as you imply for someone who requires medications or other ongoing treatment to simply arrive and get the care they need without potentially problematic delay.
“You can just walk into any hospital and a doctor will have time to see you and prescribe a medication for you?”
yes.
“you can just walk into any pharmacy and get a medication without a prescription?”
depends on the medication.
but mostly, yes.
I can’t think of a legitimate health scenario where the answer is no.
“Forgive me if I’m skeptical.”
forgiven.
I’ve heard these questions a hundred times.
If you’re haven’t traveled, you equate everything to the US, although things like the healthcare system abroad are meant to serve people rather than corporations so they function a lot differently than you’re used to.
“What country are you describing?”
most of Western Europe and most of Asia (I can only speak to the countries I’ve been to), and I know someone who lives exclusively in the Balkans who says all the countries there are the same as well.
“While this is generally true, it is not universally true for all medications.”
it’s universally true as far as I’m aware and have experienced.
you might not have the same brand, but it’ll be the same medication except readily available and cheaper.
“a lay person won’t know what those are and will require professional guidance”
yea, I assume it’s the same in your country? where some medications should be prescribed or recommended by a doctor?
“finding a doctor and waiting for an appointment.”
Google and maybe sitting down and playing on your phone for a half hour is a lot easier than you’re making it out to be.
“During which time you may well run out of your medication.”
how?
I can’t imagine this scenario happening.
Unless you’re talking about something you have to take hourly and you brought one pill with you so you’ll be without medication for 30 minutes?
these are such unlikely possibilities.
I’ve known known an uncountable number of travelers for the past decade, many of whom take medication, zero of which have ever complained of not being able to find their particular medication.
not once.
I hear “geez did you know X is only like three bucks here? It’s like $80 a bottle in the states!”
“This take suggests a lack of perspective on chronic/debilitating illnesses as well as poverty.”
couldn’t be less correct.
your doubt on what I’m saying simply demonstrates your ignorance.
I’m not using “ignorance” as a pejorative term, I mean that you literally don’t know what you are talking about.
chronic debilitating illnesses and poverty are characterized by financial trouble.
traveling takes away financial stressors.
I have known many retirees and chronically ill people who have regaled me with tales of how easy it is to retire in Vietnam/Germany/Portugal/Laos and so on because they don’t have to worry about the cost of medication.
financial anxiety isn’t completely determining their life.
“it leaves little cognitive space for more abstract/complex concerns.”
Yes, this was my original point.
If you don’t have any savings, if you’re a month away from living on the street, if you have healthcare needs, and these financial stressors are determining your life, traveling can fix that almost instantly.
then you can save up money, make a plan and go back to whatever you want to do.
but at the very least you’ll have breathing room, and what’s most likely is you’ll discover that traveling is way better than struggling in the US and you’ll keep traveling.
“…isn’t exactly conducive to success in America’s abusive work culture.”
yep, America’s work culture sucks.
most other countries have siestas and employee rights.
and are focused on draining you financially. every second you’re awake
Plus, if you’re outside of the US for more than 330 days out of the year, you fill out the FEIE, an IRS tax form, and you don’t pay income tax up to $120,000 per year.
“I really can’t fathom that it’s as trivial as you imply for someone who requires medications or other ongoing treatment to simply arrive and get the care they need without potentially problematic delay.”
That’s because you haven’t done it yet(and I never said it was trivial).
It’s difficult to fathom something you’ve never experienced.
especially when you’re living in the worst existing iteration of functional health care infrastructure.
you’ve grown up with excruciating waits and debilitating, financially disastrous healthcare your whole life, and you are surrounded by people who think the same thing and think it’s normal, so thinking about health care at all puts you in the mindset of excruciating waits, debilitating, financially disastrous, healthcare.
That’s mostly a US specialty.
ask anyone who has traveled for any length of time and they will tell you exactly what I’m telling you.
I’m very happy to answer these questions and will answer any other questions you have.
I’m going to just roll into Canada and see if they kick me out? You can’t just show up in a country and roll the dice. American is not a desired nationality in developed countries.
Yes, you can just show up in a country.
I’m not sure what dice you’re referring to, what sort of risk are you afraid of?
it’s very easy to travel to other countries.
That’s pretty fuckin dependent yo.
US to Mexico? Yeah Portugal to Spain? You bet. HK or Taiwan to PRC? HELL YES.
Mexico to US? Depends. US to Canada? Depends. UK to France? Depends.
NK to SK? Lol no Cuba to US? Lol no
Inside the Eurozone you’re right, but it’s not really an effective blanket statement.
dependent on having a passport and the price of a ticket.
If you have leapt those hurdles, you can travel to any of 186 countries with the click of a button and anywhere from ten to a few hundred dollars.
Canada was $22 yesterday from Washington.
I got a ticket from New York to London for $23 and a ticket from Ireland to Morocco for $12.
New York to Hong Kong? $213 this spring.
I’m comfortable checking ticket prices regularly, but even if don’t plan at all, you can add 50 to 100 bucks to any of those prices and find a ticket right away.
you already mentioned you don’t want to visit North Korea and Cuba.
That’s okay, traveling to one country doesn’t mean you have to travel to literally every country.
Just choose the places you want to go to.
I suggest avoiding North Korean and any countries currently operated by actively genocidal warlords.
leaves you with almost 200 other breathtakingly beautiful, culturally unique countries to travel to.
proof in the pudding:
tickets for tomorrow:
So, question: You’re someone with a not-remote-friendly skill set. You save your money to travel - travel, mind you, not immigrate, so subject to the visa requirements of travellers/tourists (as this seems to be what you’re talking about - immigration is a whole different kettle of fish). The money runs out. What do?
Or - you’re living paycheck to paycheck with children. You try to save money to travel for the reasons you’ve brought up here. It’s not possible. What do?
No offence, but your account of travel as a solution here seems deeply naive. It can work for some, sure, but “just leave the country bro” simply isn’t an option at all for many, many people.
“The money runs out. What do?”
you do not need a remote friendly skill set to find an online job that will pay you a few hundred dollars per month.
so you get an online job.
if for whatever reason you only want to work in person, you can go berry picking in a lot of countries or harvesting on farms, you can teach English in person in 40 different countries immediately, au pairs, housesitters, a lot of countries hire seasonal workers.
so if you need a job, you can find one.
and if you plan ahead at all (oh no! I only have four more weeks of money), your overhead is so cheap that whatever job you get will cover you, you’ll be able to catch up and hopefully learn to plan ahead a little bit.
example: this month you somehow forgot you needed money. but you remembered in the last month before you ran out and you taught English for 10 hours and you got rent for the next month.
now you’re one month ahead, so you teach English for 10 more hours, and now? you’re 2 months ahead, and you have one whole month minus 10 hours to figure out what you’re going to do next.
or what you want to do next.
most travelers don’t have this problem, I’ve never met one that ran out of money without some sort of plan in place.
you have so much time when you don’t have any financial stressors, and there are jobs in every country, and a billion jobs that you don’t need skills for online, plus countless online certifications if you want a professional online job.
there’s no reason why you would end up in a situation where you surprisingly ran out of money.
“you’re living paycheck to paycheck with children. You try to save money to travel for the reasons you’ve brought up here. It’s not possible. What do?”
do you have a phone? easiest way is to teach English online for 10 hours a month If that’s all you have.
you have enough money to move your family after a few months.
“No offence, but your account of travel as a solution here seems deeply naive”
That’s because you don’t know anything about traveling, so you are imagining that these simple solutions won’t work because you don’t know how to solve these problems.
I do.
“naive”
I don’t think you know what this word means.
i know exactly how to travel immediately and indefinitely, I’ve brought other people along and taught them how to travel, I have simple practical solutions to any question off the cuff because I know and have lived this stuff back and forth.
I have as much practical experience with travel and insight into traveling as anybody you’re going to find.
you’re assuming that because you don’t know how to travel, other people cannot know how to travel.
but we do.
“It can work for some, sure, but “just leave the country bro” simply isn’t an option at all for many, many people.”
travel can work for anybody, leaving the country is an option for anyone with a valid passport and 100 bucks.
and especially if you need financial relief, It’s a heck of a lot easier and more liberating than borrowing money from friends or family or living in your car or on the streets, or moving back in with your parents.
people are afraid of traveling, especially Americans, because they live in a monoculture, they’re told that the world outside is scary and other cultures are scary, but other cultures are beautiful and compassionate.
other countries function better than the US does in most respects, and practically all livability.
if you travel, you will learn that.
Naive in the sense that it doesn’t adequately account for the situation of many people. Not everyone has the circumstances where they can do this. I can’t help but feel there’s some survivorship bias influencing your position.
I’m curious, though, if you’re up to illustrating (if not, totally fine): You are a single mother of two sons, ages 7 and 8, living in Generic State, USA. You have a high school degree and no post-secondary education. You have limited support, solely in the form of limited childcare, from family/the wider community. You make about $1600.00 USD per month, after taxes, working 50 hours a week at a physical workplace. You’re finding yourself with $10 left at the end of each month, after all legitimately necessary expenses (rent, food, basic utilities) are paid for. Let’s make it easy and say you have no debt.
What are you doing, and where are you going, if following your advice? It should be noted these circumstances are actually quite a bit better than other folks in the U.S. To be clear, I don’t think this is a gotcha, nor is it intended to be - I just want to see your approach here.
Edit: Monthly wage should be after taxes, not before, and changed $900 to $1600 (based roughly on monthly takehome pay at Ohio’s minimum wage rate, and I calculated for 1 pay period rather than 2 per month)
“Naive in the sense that it doesn’t adequately account for the situation of many people.”
this is not my naivety but projection your own: another example of you not believing in something you have no experience in.
as I’ve made note of: families can travel, disabled people can travel, minorities of all walks of life can travel, what are these circumstances you’re imagining?
some other theoretical esoteric scenario?
“…if following your advice”
Don’t worry, this is definitely not a gotcha, I have hired this person before.
TLDR: get tefl certificate, get job, buy plane tickets, sell stuff.
details below.
if we imagine that your troubled lady can only save 0.6% of her income, with zero savings, possessions, skills, experience, or motivation to leave the status quo but is forced to out of necessity, it could take them up to half a year to become financially independent the easiest and stablest way that I know the ins and outs of.
in real life, the destitute people I know got the certificate, sold everything and started teaching online or abroad in under a month, the abroad ones paid off $2,000 of their debt a month in the states within a few months while living very comfortably, and kept traveling and saving money.
but for the make-believe person:
right now, a full internationally accredited TEFL certificate for life is $30.
40 hour course, works out to about 8 hours of tests.
I’ve never seen anyone take longer than 12 hours with this course, but if we pretend they took the full amount of time with the limitation of $10 extra a month and 15 minutes of free time a day, she can either charge the course to a credit card and pay off the course and finish the course at the same time, or save up for 3 months until she has $30, then take the course and add on another 2 months.
I knew someone with zero savings, kids, and “literally no free time”, and they got the certification (which was 40 at the time, not 30 like it is now) and completed this course in a week and a half.
once you have that certificate, Google TEFL teaching apps and TEFL teaching platforms, there are dozens of places you can teach online with only a phone or a laptop if you have one, with the TEFL certificate she’s making $20 an hour pretty easily, If she’s terrible at technology and teaching and everything, that she’s making $12 an hour.
to get to the highest paying jobs in Asia, we’ll assume she’ll need the most expensive ticket, $300 per person.
at the lowest pay, she’ll need to work about 75 hours to make that amount of money to relocate her family, subtracting the costs of what she’s going to sell before she leaves and any assets she has, the sale of which which are probably enough to cover the entire cost.
so she works 1 hour a day, 2 months later she has enough to leave.
half an hour a day, 4 months later she has enough to leave the states with her kids.
The lady with two kids I mentioned was in Thailand maybe 3 weeks later, their international schools are great for expats.
another single mom I know just stayed in the states and kept teaching online, because at $20 an hour you’re making you’re making closer to $4,000 a month if you work 50 hours a week.
she makes closer to $30 an hour now, It’s been a few years.