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Not trying to start a fight, just curious. If you (vegans) already know we (meat eaters) don’t care, why would you keep pursuing that line of argument?
At least for my part:
For the same reason I try to fight against injustices for people?
Why do I, as a male, condemn sexist behavior and fight against it? Why do I, as a teacher, stand in for the rights of my students when they get wronged? Why do I, as a human, hate to see other people fighting?
It’s a mixture between empathy and a feeling of justice.
I just dislike unjust behavior - and for me, animal cruelty is unjust.
I think you meant you condemn sexist behavior…
Big Oof.
Thanks for the note, I was kinda hastily writing this and not thinking it through.
Sounds like you should be working on laws to restrict meat eating. That’s typically how we handle injustices on a society wide scale.
You can’t work on laws to restrict meat eating without getting the public onboard first. Our democracy is flawed, sure, but we don’t live in an autocracy. Vegan activists do work day in and day out on lobbying for legislation. California just the other day banned octopus farming.
But that worked because the public was broadly onboard with it because of the recent public understanding of how intelligent octopodes are. If California somehow passed a restriction on meats like pork, beef, chicken, etc., then the entire state would immediately riot and kick the legislature out, completely undoing the restriction.
Good point.
May I ask this… Would you decide to gradually change your lifestyle to a less cruel one when the vegan arguments seem to be correct or would you rather wait for a law against eating meat?
Me personally? I don’t care about cruelty, so what would get me to change is a law that says I must. Or legal/economic incentives.
I do care about the environment, so I don’t eat beef. But that’s not common. Most people who don’t care about animal cruelty also don’t care about the environment.
That sounds like you have that “if it doesn’t affect me, why would I care” mind, which would be crazy. But I might have got that wrong what you just said.
To not care about cruelty is not “normal”. To not have empathy for animals is far from normal. If I go into the city and show people videos of animal abuse, they’d be shocked. They have empathy.
So I wonder, why do you say that you don’t care about cruelty? Is that just in regard to animals? Or do you also not care about other people suffering?
And for the second part: I disagree. People tend to care about the environment even though they consume animal products. It’s just that they don’t care enough so that they’ll change their way of living. They prefer not to go out of their comfort zone. They want to consume. And they put personal wealth over the wellbeing of nature and other individuals if you ask me
A lot of vegans are environmentalists too, and so it caught my eye that you specificied beef. If you’re interested in an easy way to dramatically drop your environmental impact relative to the effort, trying out plant milks can be a great way to go about it. The dairy and beef industries are heavily intertwined, and from an environmental standpoint, dairy milk stands head and shoulders above plant ones in terms of emissions, land usage, and water usage. I would say that plant milks offer a better experience than dairy milk even completely disregarding the ethics and the environment, so it could be worth your while.
Well, yes. That sounds reasonable at first.
But also, think of the broader public reaction, if governments started banning meat / animal products / whatever industries that exploit animals.
I do not think most people would be fine with a government mandated ban on those goods/practices.
I’m not vegan and won’t ever be but can see that it does work just not to the extent a lot of them would like the world to. Like I said I’m not vegan however with the innovation of the meatless foods like the beyond burgers and such I’d be willing to try it IF I don’t have to pay and if I like it then that’s 1 more thing I’ll do towards a better eco system even if microscopic. Then you have kids/teens who will see this and begin to lean towards being vegan as they wouldn’t like what they see/learn.
At the end of the day even if it’s a small audience they’ll still reach people and change life styles which is ok
Humans, all humans, have a built-in ability to not care about other people. This can easily extend to animals as well. That’s all it is, they don’t want to care so they don’t. They want to eat/use animal products and are far enough removed from the gruesome aspects of it that they can just choose to not care.
The argument some people give is that plants also feel pain.
Which reveals how little they understand about what they’re talking about
But you can just simply ask them if they want to say by that that cutting an onion is in principle the same as cutting the throat of a cow. They’ll row back then I assume
idk, personally I really don’t care that much about eating corpses, maybe I’m too detatched or a horrible person, but for some reason I’m fine with it
I’m a native with prehistoric roots to meat eating and being part of the chain. I personally do not eat meat, but I see no moral issue with hunting in the way it’s supposed to be. Not this AR 15 hunting for trophies bullshit. I’m talking ethical, respectful, using every part in a spiritual way. No factory farming. What are most vegans views on native culture in that sense?
Curious, how is hunting with an AR unethical?
I’m guessing it’s more about the standard round that it fires. 5.56 or .223 rounds are built more for penetrating materials so when they’re up against a fleshy target, unless you hit them right in the vitals, might not cleanly kill and cause prolonged suffering. That’s not to say that the gun can’t be chambered in something that’s more useful for hunting but having a 20-30 round magazine for hunting is still a bit overkill.
Most states have a limit on how many rounds when you are hunting wild game, 4-5 max capacity.
I think the main difference between you and the people from your prehistoric roots is that you have many other choices. You don’t have to continue to hunt down many animals, because you can choose to buy certain foods and you also have the choice to buy plant based foods.
Whenever you have the choice to buy plant based foods, there is no chance to argue that purchasing animal products in that case is somehow ethical.
The only way to defend hunting for your own survival is when you don’t live in a place where you have many foods available. Like, let’s say you are on an island where there is no shopping centre or anything. You obviously need to hunt to survive. But if you live somewhere where many plant based foods are available, saying that killing animals is justified in order to get food makes no sense at all. And is certainly not ethical (Deciding to kill an individual being without any necessity can never be ethical)
Still odd how you’re talking about people having the choice of what to eat while you reject their choice.
What exactly do I reject?
I’m a person with prehistoric roots to eating humans and being part of the chain. I personally do not eat human meat, but I see no moral issue with hunting people in the way it’s supposed to be. Not this AR-15 hunting for trophies bullshit. I’m talking ethical, respectful, using every part in a spiritual way. No factory farming. What are most non-cannibals’ views on my culture in that sense?
That your culture is “native” makes it no less unethical, and killing with an AR-15 versus with a traditional weapon definitely has zero ethical difference (if anything, a bullet is likely minimally more humane).
AR-15 is just a rifle platform designation. It stands for Armalite (the company that developed the platform) Riffle - 15. They fire the same ammunition as any wooden stock rifle does (depending on your build). They are not some scary over powered gun. And, yes, some game does require you use a higher caliber in order to humanly kill the animal you are hunting. Smaller rounds would end up causing a longer drawn out death for the animal. I assure you most hunters do care about hunting compassionately.
Not trying to diminish your comment. I am strictly a bow hunter. I just feel like using the term AR-15 as a boogey man in any argument about guns is bad faith.
Now, if you are referring directly to curated exotic “hunting” farms, then I absolutely agree with you. Those establishments are a mockery of hunting. I will say, however, that many of those farms do work closely with conservation organizations, so it just really depends.
What about the end goal of all this? If people stop eating cows, and then we stop keeping and breeding cattle because no one is eating them, where do all the cows go?
milk!
Milk is not allowed either.
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