- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
You must log in or register to comment.
The aversion to reading is always a red flag for me. Reading is a pillar of human intelligence.
They’d be mad if they could understand anything that wasn’t Facebook memes and bad email chains.
MAGA is popular for the same reason other nationalist, fascist movements have risen over the course of modern history: as a response to Capitalist decay. MAGA isn’t popular for genetic reasons, intellectual inferiority, or other reasons like that, but as a common class interest. All of the descriptors in the OP are consequences of the driving factor of class interests, not the drivers themselves.
Fascism is most often represented as an alliance between the Petite Bourgeoisie and Bourgeoisie proper, driven by the Petite Bourgeoisie, as monopolization of Capital results in competition becoming more and more difficult, and the Petite Bourgeoisie faces Proletarianization. To prevent the Petite Bourgeoisie from joining the Proletariat in solidarity, the Bourgeoisie proper turns their hatred against the Proletariat and Lumpenproletariat.
What does this all mean, in practical, American terms? Small business owners, landlords, ie the “middle class,” is shrinking in power, so the Small Business Owners are aligning with billionaires like Musk and Bezos against immigrants, workers, unhoused peopled, gender/sexual minorities, women, ethnic minorities, and more.
How do we fix this? Grow the Petite Bourgeoisie and restore their position? Absolutely not! That’s when fascism is established. Trying to “turn the clock back to the good old days” results in dramatic reductions in worker rights and a solidification of power.
What we need to do is establish Socialism. A victory of the Proletariat, a folding of the large monopolist syndicates into the public sector so they can be centrally planned for the public good, rather than privately planned for profit, is the way forward. This is the way to escape fascism’s rise. This is the way to defeat MAGA.
I recommend reading the book Blackshirts and Reds, fascism’s irrationality has rational, material origins, that can be understood and defeated, and it isn’t in the “marketplace of ideas.”
Genuine question from someone socialism curious: my understanding of petite bourgeoisie was they were upper class but non capital owners, like doctors and lawyers, but i guess business owners and landlords fit too. But Trump’s support is largely non college educated white men. When I think of a Trump supporter I think a mechanic in Pennsylvania. I am thinking of the majority of teamsters based on their internal poll. To put a finer point on it, fascism under Trump seems to be driven by the proletariat. The petite bourgeoisie, if anything, is solidly in the Harris camp precisely because of its concern about fascism.
America is a bit unique, it’s made up nearly entirely of Labor Aristocracy, ie beneficiaries of Imperialism.
The Petite Bourgeoisie are Capital Owners that must labor, small business owners and the like. The lack of college education doesn’t mean they won’t be held back from becoming business owners, and the dominance among the religious and white is because of fascism’s cultural characteristics, explained in the first chapter of Blackshirts and Reds.
Fascism can also be described as Imperialism turned inwards.
Interesting, thank you for the response. I’ll give that book a read, and I appreciate the direct link!
No problem! Feel free to DM me if you have any questions. That site is maintained by a comrade here, @Edie@lemmy.ml, it does a great job with the site!
Why not both?
Clearly some people are attracted to far-right ideals without being in the petite bourgeoisie and some people who are in it are even repelled by such ideals, plus there is the whole domain of the “highly educated” who tend to be less attracted to far-right ideals and yet are often generally more prosperous than most shop keepers and similar and some even work in similar business structures (such as Architects with their own Studios or Lawyers with their own small Legal Practices) hence would count a that kind of petit burgeouisie.
I would say that it’s a mix of what you point out (so people’s petit burgeouis status or, as I would put it: “people who have just enough material wealth to think they’re wealthy but without the education and worldliness to understand that they’re nowhere close to real wealth”), certain character traits such as one’s level of Empathy and Self-awareness, one’s breadth of life experience (not in term of years but of how many different things one has done and seen and kinds of people one has met, which would explain why city people are less likely be attracted to the far-right that more provincial types) and one’s style of thinking and practice with things like analysing real world situations and trying to solve real world problems (which would partly explain the effect of Education, the other part falling into breath of experience, specifically in the form of how much information one has the tools to understand).
This is without even going into the environment one grew up in and lives in: sometimes that kind of thinking is so widespread in one’s family and were one lives that showing the social cues of far-right belief and even believing it is a natural element of fitting in if only for one’s own protection, similarly to how people tend to be religious when coming from a religious family and living in a religious community.
It isn’t an iron-clad rule, but a tendency. Individuals vary, groups act on aggregates.
And the main reason they’re not happy is that they got left behind by the evil fucks they keep voting for. It’s beyond maddening.
But they have flags!. So many flags!
Plus, they love the Jesus!!
The other side has LGBTQdsfapdkfopsdkf+ flags, so many colorful flags…
The difference is, I support people to have any kind of sexuality or gender or life or love that they want, I actively want them to have those rights.
But I don’t hang those flags all over my car, my yard, my clothes, my pets, etc. Maybe a few people do here and there, but I don’t feel so threatened in my values that I need to constantly reaffirm it and display it to the world. Most people feel this way, even though the majority of Americans support these rights.
This is why you see far, far more Trump propaganda than ANY kinds of special awareness flags. Which are totally different anyway. One supports an idea. One worships a man who wants to police ideas.
gasp! But muh daddy ain’t know them flags, and we fear the unknown!
Plus they rejekted teh Jeezus!! Graar!
I had an old lady get emotional over a government subsidy offered to help reduce some of her septic system expenses. It was the first time in a long time the government ever helped her she said. It felt good to help.
Then I had another old lady tell me she was going to die and it was going to be my fault and I deserved to go to hell because that same rebate program ended and there was no funding left.
One step forward one step back.
They don’t like to read more than a couple of sentences.
Honestly I wonder how much reading comprehension they struggle with. Like the average reading level is 8th grade, if that iirc. I swear they drop out as soon as there are big words cuz they get pissed they can’t understand. People that lean left are clinically shown to be more* (not not) open minded, and I imagine are the ones going and googling when they don’t know or have someone right there they trust to explain.
My daughter calls them trumpy grumpies and I thought it was a good name.
my mother who works at a high-class nursery full of milfs, calls them yummy mummies and I think that’s a good name
\end tangent
I am so, so glad Democrats have finally woken up to the fact that Republicans are not just misinformed Democrats. There’s no amount of facts we can throw at them to make them stop being terrible people. They’re not going to suddenly go “oh my God, I was wrong!” This is who they are.
A basketful of deplorables, as it were.
They’re dixiecrats, they used to be the worst part of the democrats before LBJ dared to sign civil rights, an unforgivable sin.
They don’t like to read
I argue that’s the issue right there.
Reading only headlines will get you there quickly. But headlines are click bait and insufficient.
I recall seeing a study on the demographics of who actually reads articles and MAGAs were among the most that did not read.
Sounds like a basket of deplorables to me.
No, you mustn’t say!
deleted by creator
they are selfish.
That’s where all of those symptoms stem from.
selfish greed.
MAGA is popular for the same reason other nationalist, fascist movements have risen over the course of modern history: as a response to Capitalist decay. MAGA isn’t popular for genetic reasons, intellectual inferiority, or other reasons like that, but as a common class interest. All of the descriptors in the OP are consequences of the driving factor of class interests, not the drivers themselves.
Fascism is most often represented as an alliance between the Petite Bourgeoisie and Bourgeoisie proper, driven by the Petite Bourgeoisie, as monopolization of Capital results in competition becoming more and more difficult, and the Petite Bourgeoisie faces Proletarianization. To prevent the Petite Bourgeoisie from joining the Proletariat in solidarity, the Bourgeoisie proper turns their hatred against the Proletariat and Lumpenproletariat.
What does this all mean, in practical, American terms? Small business owners, landlords, ie the “middle class,” is shrinking in power, so the Small Business Owners are aligning with billionaires like Musk and Bezos against immigrants, workers, unhoused peopled, gender/sexual minorities, women, ethnic minorities, and more.
How do we fix this? Grow the Petite Bourgeoisie and restore their position? Absolutely not! That’s when fascism is established. Trying to “turn the clock back to the good old days” results in dramatic reductions in worker rights and a solidification of power.
What we need to do is establish Socialism. A victory of the Proletariat, a folding of the large monopolist syndicates into the public sector so they can be centrally planned for the public good, rather than privately planned for profit, is the way forward. This is the way to escape fascism’s rise. This is the way to defeat MAGA.
I recommend reading the book Blackshirts and Reds, fascism’s irrationality has rational, material origins, that can be understood and defeated, and it isn’t in the “marketplace of ideas.”
That’s a modern take that doesn’t really hold up to any scrutiny since there was conservatism before capitalism.
It’s a convenient rallying cry of people who prefer socialism as they understand it, but the direct comparison doesn’t hold any historical water.
mega fits into capitalism and socialist. I think they’re such broad concepts, but definitely not the instigating concepts of fascism are conservatism.
I remember that book, it’s older right? I read it in college or high school at some point.
Conservativism isn’t the same as fascism. Reactionary movements have existed in every form of Class Society, when Capitalism overtook Feudalism it was the holdover Monarchist movements. It isn’t a “convenient rallying cry,” but an analysis of reactionary vs progressive social movements driven by class interests.
mega fits into capitalism and socialist
I have no idea what this means. Why do you think MAGA is Socialist?
I remember that book, it’s older right? I read it in college or high school at some point.
Written in the 90s, you should revisit it.
“Reactionary movements have existed in every form of Class Society, when Capitalism overtook Feudalism it was the holdover Monarchist movements.”
and before class society!
"an analysis of reactionary vs progressive social movements driven by class interests. "
blaming capitalism for literally everything, especially in a meme, is simple aggressive fomenting.
superficial demonization encourages a riot, not a movement, although it’s easy to confuse the two when your blood is pumping and everyone around you is screaming the same facile slogan.
and before class society!
What “reactionary” movements existed in tribal societies devoid of distinct classes?
blaming capitalism for literally everything, especially in a meme, is simple aggressive fomenting.
I blame Capitalism for Capitalism’s issues, not literally everything.
superficial demonization encourages a riot, not a movement, although it’s easy to confuse the two when your blood is pumping and everyone around you is screaming the same facile slogan.
I have no idea what point you’re actually making.
“What “reactionary” movements existed in tribal societies devoid of distinct classes?”
tribal societies specifically?
exactly how far are you narrowing societies you want examples of reactionary movements in down to?
like you want a specific century and a specific type of society? instead of just any non-capitalist society?
how are you defining capitalism?
are you ignoring the contemporary Amish and other people who oppose change out of principle for no capitalist reason?
"I blame Capitalism for Capitalism’s issues, not literally everything. "
you’re lumping conservative human behavior that exists independent of capitalism with actual examples of direct capitalist problems like mortgage crises.
your brush is too broad.
"I have no idea what point you’re actually making. "
yelling “socialism is the best and capitalism causes all the problems” at the people yelling “capitalism is the best and socialism causes all the problems” isn’t exactly dignifying your stance with a sense of legitimacy.
tribal societies specifically?
Yes, after tribal societies came the first class-based societies. You said reactionary movements predate class society, tell me.
how are you defining capitalism?
An economic mode of production centered around commodity production through competing Capitalists in markets who employ wage-labor, seeking greater and greater accumulation. This process is only a few hundred years old.
are you ignoring the contemporary Amish and other people who oppose change out of principle for no capitalist reason?
The Amish participate in Capitalism. Culture is a reflection of the Mode of Production.
you’re lumping conservative human behavior that exists independent of capitalism with actual examples of direct capitalist problems like mortgage crises.
I am speaking of class interests.
yelling “socialism is the best and capitalism causes all the problems” at the people yelling “capitalism is the best and socialism causes all the problems” isn’t exactly dignifying your stance with a sense of legitimacy.
Where are you seeing this?
Lots of them are, but it’s stupid comments like this which make me shake my head. The left will lose 2024 with their fake moral superiority and fail to understand what happened.
Again.
get your maga out of here.
*The left will lose 2024 with their fake moral superiority…"
it is not a fake moral superiority, the left has a practical moral superiority demonstrated by material policy that positively affects the lives of people.
The left beat you in 2020 because of their tangible moral superiority by providing civil protections and material assets for the rights of the electorate.
conservatives are legally trying and succeeding in stealing the rights, liberties and property of Americans.
Americans don’t like that, and voted to the left.
they’re fighting back by prosecuting and removing the selfish conservatives who are harming people, and are creating laws and funds protecting everyone,
civil rights are not a “fake” moral superiority, they are a tangible moral superiority effected through practical, respectful policy.
The smug feeling of moral superiority and the continuous willingness to correct the other’s behaviour is THE reason why people can’t stand “left/wokism/whatever”. Continously pointing out on fake “offensive words” just to show off how morally superior they are.
That how it looks from outside.
(For context i am not American and don’t guve a fuck about orange man neither for so called “christian values” so don’t try to paint me as a conservative MAGA supporter.)
“moral superiority and the continuous willingness to correct the other’s behaviour”
it is tangible practical moral superiority coming from the protection and support of civil rights and liberty.
rather than taking away employee rights, the left is giving employees rights.
rather than taking away minority rights, the left is legally protecting minority rights.
those are not imaginary feelings, those are practical and effective policies.
"The smug feeling of moral superiority and the continuous willingness to correct the other’s behaviour is THE reason why people can’t stand “left/wokism/whatever”. Continously pointing out on fake “offensive words” just to show off how morally superior they are. "
this is largely your imagination and pointed conservative media and a poor excuse for selfish people to continue abusing vulnerable people for their own gain.
offensive words are not fake, and there’s nothing wrong with being considerate toward everyone.
the fact that you don’t understand haven’t considered the difference between protected civil liberties and imaginary fake word hunts from the left (that are actually perpetrated by conservatives banning books from libraries) demonstrates exactly how successful the conservative media you consume is.
consider what you’re saying, consider the information around you.
anybody accusing the left of instigating moral panics while the right is literally banning books in libraries over words that they don’t like or understand clearly doesn’t have even the most tenuous comprehension of what is really happening.
rather than taking away employee rights, the left is giving employees rights.
Good, that’s not what I am talking about
rather than taking away minority rights, the left is legally protecting minority rights.
Good, that’s not what i am talking about neither
. those are practical and effective policies.
Cool I agree!
this is largely your imagination and pointed conservative media and a poor excuse for selfish people to continue abusing vulnerable people for their own gain.
Oh wait, so telling someone “your fears/points you makes, it’s just your imagination” is a valid argument now? lol
the fact that you don’t understand haven’t considered the difference between protected civil liberties and imaginary fake word hunts … the conservative media you consume is.
Well you didn’t even bother to check if we are talking about the same points. Good on you I guess. You also somehow deduced I consume conservative medias, that’s some skill!
consider what you’re saying, consider the information around you.
Consider what you are saying, consider the information about you.
… right is literally banning books in libraries over words…
Banning books is dumb, I don’t know what makes you say I d support it. It never occured to me to ban a book, and I am not planning or supporting anyone who does.
Again 95% of your comment is completely beside the point, because you somehow assumed my view points without ever considering I actually have similar views, I just don’t subscribe to every other random bullshit “the left” (whatever that means, because I don’t consider myself “right” neither) does.
nobody’s throwing you in jail for being the public bigot you aspire to. use all the slurs you want.
people are, however, murdering trans people and banning books. in the real world.
have fun cradling your make believies.
Many of them started in camp 1 and entered camp 2.
my (lifelong republican) aunt and uncle were trump haters in the 2016 primaries. but of course they voted for him in the election because Hillary is literally the devil, and once he won they were all in.
I need to ask my parents, cuz last I heard around June my dad had snapped out enough to at least to say he was considering not voting for the first time ever in a national election. There’s an ironic push for ranked choice style options moving forward now thanks to our state Republicans trying to revert back to caucuses and pissing a bunch of constituents off by having us vote to ban other options
You’re not wrong.
These are the same people onsite who never take responsibility.
Also, they’re willing to listen to children. Literally saw one yesterday comment on Facebook repeating the “kamala,” nonsense.
Seriously, they act like children… Their dictator is literally a child, and no body in high school even would act this way
One of the lawyers that defended a handful of J6 insurrectionists said they would give them a reading list to help them understand on a general level what any of the legal charges they faced concerned or what the consequences could be, or just how government worked, and because this was ‘‘you need to read this before trial so you can ACTUALLY have a chance of getting a plea deal or even a dismissal if you can actually convince a judge you now grasp what you did and how bad it was, and you’re super duper sorry’’ some actually read them. And they came out of it going ‘‘oh… I’ve been lied to and manipulated into doing very illegal shit by a political party that knows it can no longer win elections and needs to do very illegal shit to retain any level of power’’ and similar thoughts.
But yes. If they instead acquired a smidge of curiosity and interest in worthwhile pursuits they would probably stop being garbage ass people. Maybe we need to make reading cool? Possible dinosaurs reading on posters. That’s what got me reading.
A lot of them feel betrayed/wronged by the system, or by lleft leaning/progressive politics.
That’s why they don’t mind Trump’s wrongdoings. They see things like his felony mugshot and think “he’s been betrayed and attacked by the system just like me!”…
…a lot of it is emotional for them, and it’s a difficult mindset they’re unlikely to leave behind.
Still at least it’s a better ratio than in places like Israel, where the vast majority of the population are far-right (many of whom are conspiracy theory inclined, particularly when it comes to the assassination of their former PM Yitzhak Rabin).
That scene gets more and more perfect every year. Tho the worst morons dont actually work or live on the land, they live in the suburbs and drive around in their monster trucks that have never been off road or hauled jack shit in the beds
Weird shitheads.
gang i think some percentage of the FREE CITIZENS OF THE COLONIAL SLAVERY EMPIRE might be violently bigoted
when they were knocking doors did they check with anybody who the slave empire has imprisoned or any of the folks that don’t have doors
