EDIT: I’m interested in how a free Palestine would play out in terms of what that would mean for women, gays, children, people of non-muslim religions, in terms of personal freedoms, etc. For the average citizen/denizen what would that look like?
Palestine
Which one, the west bank or Gaza?
Or do you think each one will get an autonomy in almost every aspect, but will still be part of the same state?
Edited post, what other different arab nation?
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Thanks for this answer specifically ;) I have to remember it all makes me a better thinker (“i’m in my hapoy place”-style)
Japan
Whys that?
I think they will have a strong will to work really hard to rebuild and will have a good mix between modernity and tradition like Japan
I’ve read that population-wise, Palestine is over 50% young people/children. Do you think that might be key to a generational refresh that allows for compromise in producing a solution at some point if all the pieces can line up?
What kind of compromise?
A two-state solution? Palestine is objectively less-developed and economically-developed than Israel, I don’t think its realistic there’s going to be a “river to the sea free of israel” type situation. Not sure whether thats what is actually being advocated for but it also seems like a point that keeps coming up over and again as I read about this.
If Israel had a far more moderate government where the leader wasn’t criminally compromised, do you think it would be possible to come up with some good enough good-faith joint effort to relieve some of the tension points and allow for change?
I don’t believe the older generation don’t want a two state solution. The problem with the two state solution proposals was always biased towards Israel and have almost no flexibility in discussing the terms. I think a one state solution makes more sens
I’ve watched videos with Palestinians lamenting the good old days when they had a job that was either in Israel or with an Israelli firm that paid much better and it makes me really question whether this is about religion or past stuff at all. I wonder if all Palestinians who are offered a better life thru gainful employment and modern peaceful lifestyle with the modern amentities wouldn’t warm to the idea of a pluralistic and perhaps closer to 1-state solution altho I also understand where the Israelis are coming from in terms of not wanting the muslim baggage and ongoing concerns that creates.
Religions that create such a conviction that there’s another better life you can arbitrarily access if you do violence in your god’s name are inherently antithetical to modern life and cohesion so I get that they would be reluctant if it came to that. There would very likely be a non-zero number of civillian deaths and incidents that would immediately be blamed on any unification
Are you thinking “young people” = “less religious”?
That’s mainly the case for Christians/the west, not Muslims in Muslim countries.
Eh, young muslims drink in excess far more than the previous generation. They just pretend like they don’t.
Yes, young people usually engage more in “forbidden” activities than older people.
I feel that once the young are out of the watchful judgemental eye of the old (i.e. they pass on), things will change drastically
Depends on the starting conditions.
There are two main “forces” at play here:
Hamas, which is an fundamentalist, religious and military organization backed by Iran. If they were to gain power in a Palestinian state, it would look something like Hezbollah controlled areas in Lebanon. So… not good.
Fatah, on the other hand, is a (relatively) secular organization that’s in good relations with western countries. If they were to gain power, Palestine would be more open to western influence, and will probably treat women, secular people and minorities better. This version of Palestine will probably be the most pro-western Arab state, so it might be more influenced by western values more than other Arab states. Of course, in the mid- or long run it’s possible an extremist power will rise regardless of western backing (ex. Iran).
Assuming a you’re talking about the near future, which organization will have control largely depends on if Hamas would exist. If so, they’ll probably get the credit for a recognized state due to their “resistance”. Then again, it’s very possible one of the conditions for a universally recognized state will be the elimination of Hamas as a political (and obviously military) force.
I’m kinda ignoring the “including Israel” part of your question, as Israel would absolutely not accept any version of Palestine with Hamas.
I’m interested in how a free Palestine would play out in terms of what that would mean for women, gays, children, people of non-muslim religions, in terms of personal freedoms, etc.
I think this is a ludicrously speculative question given the current state of things, and possibly a leading one. It smells like imperial core feigned human rights concern for the purposes of manufacturing consent. That’s the reason we hear about Palestinian human rights from Western governments, human rights NGOs, and corporate media; and therefore why they’re salient in the public discourse. It’s propaganda. Citations Needed podcast: The Human Rights Concern Troll Industrial Complex
I’m interested in how a free Palestine would play out in terms of what that would mean for women, gays, children, people of non-muslim religions, in terms of personal freedoms, etc. For the average citizen/denizen what would that look like?
Well the future doens’t permit accurate predictions.
Ahmad Yusuf, the deputy foreign minister of Hamas, said in 2010 that he wanted a country like Turkey, not like the Taliban:
According to Yusuf, who said he is writing a book called “Erdoğan and a New Strategic Vision,” the Taliban is “opposed to everything,” including education and women’s rights. “Erdoğan’s model, on the other hand, is liberal. It is a model that dares to take responsibility and change things and establishes good relations between the religious and secular elements of society,” he said. “It is a model that works for democracy and human rights, and supports an open society. That is what we want.”
inb4 Woids saying Erdoğan isn’t liberal enough for them: homosexuality is not criminalised in Turkey, Bülent Ersoy is a major celebrity.
I’m not praising Turkey, I’d see Erdoğan gone if I could, I’m just getting some facts out b4 Woids say Turkey is Muslim therefore intolerant. It has freedom of religion too.
Also worth mentioning that Ahmad Yusuf is one politician among many, expressing one possible vision for the future of Palestine. There are other political currents swirling internally.
Thats a very interesting case example. I will have to learn more about Turkey, altho it seems like the Democratic part is doing a lot of heavy lifting relative to what I’ve heard about Turkey being like Hungary in terms of democratic realities. It is impressive that they don’t have the usual antihomosexuality laws and hangups other Muslim nations have.
Then again, they probably couldn’t be part of EU with something like that on the books, no?
Then again, they probably couldn’t be part of EU with something like that on the books, no?
It’s got nothing to do with the EU because it goes back hundreds of years. Ireland joined the EEC 21 years before legalising the gay.
the usual antihomosexuality laws and hangups other Muslim nations have.
This is overstated by liberals who want to create a “West = pro-gay”, “Rest = anti-gay” narrative
I’m not sure it has ever been true that the Woids love gays and the Muslims hate them.
Scholars wrote “Persian literature is essentially a homosexual literature”
Contemporary to this, the Brits are doing Oscar Wilde to death for sodomy. And the Ottomans were gaying it up, creating the modern idea of a Turkish Bathhouse. And which Empire governed Palestine until 1917? And which Empire took it over after that?
It was the British who passed anti-gay laws in Palestine, it having been legal under Muslim rulers.
Don’t buy into the liberal idea that Muslim=anti-gay. Have you ever been to Afghanistan? Gayest culture I’ve ever seen.
Thanks, I appreciate the correction. Good to know for real
what that would mean for women, gays, children, people of non-muslim religions, in terms of personal freedoms, etc
So the wonderful thing about anti-colonial movements is that even if they start right wing they have to get more left wing as time progresses, simply due to the power dynamics that are created through the process of throwing out the imperialists. Once you stop foreign oppression, you have a grassroots mass of militant and armed revolutionaries that you’re accountable to and who get upset when you try to reproduce the same economic system. You also are tied at the hip to them as the imperialists seek a return to an old system.
This includes movements where there is no significant communist presence, but it happens faster when there are communists.
Luckily, the PLFP is the second biggest party represented in the Palestinian joint operations room and have significant military and political power, meaning that in Palestine it probably will take a lot less time to materialize.
So the wonderful thing about anti-colonial movements is that even if they start right wing they have to get more left wing as time progresses, simply due to the power dynamics that are created through the process of throwing out the imperialists.
This is a bizarre claim.
Congo got more right-wing shortly after independence. So did Tanzania.
Ireland fought a civil war against its anti-colonial left to ensure a right-wing state.
India is now very right wing after independence.
You’re stating this like some sort of rule of history.
You’re describing neo-colonial regimes that werent able to fully leave the imperialist economic structure.
Compare India to Cuba on women’s and lgbt rights
Big part of Palestinians are Christian and their doing fine. Homosexuality is currently not legal and we don’t know if independent Palestine would have fixed it on not because Israel forbids them from holding elections. Same applies to most other issues, but one thing is for sure that they will have better agriculture and trade and more opportunities as a free country. Israel is essentially blockading Gaza and West Bank gets double tariffs and no water for farming.
Hamas stops Gaza having elections.
The West Bank has no water? If they have money to fire a thousand rockets a month at Israel, why not spend some of that on the water infrastructure?
West Bank and Gaza are separate governments. Israel made a contract with Jordan Valley farmers to get their water rights in exchange for a steady water supply that they never delivered. Then after a while because they couldn’t farm without water they told them “your land is unused so we’re going to use it for a settlement”.
There is water in the West Bank but it’s not reliable since Israelis need to water their crops first.
EDIT: I’m interested in how a free Palestine would play out in terms of what that would mean for women, gays, children, people of non-muslim religions, in terms of personal freedoms, etc.
The basis of this question is Zionist because it implies things would get worse for gay Palestinians, Palestinian women, and non-Muslim Palestinians. All of these populations are currently either under military occupation or in exile, banned from entering any of historic Palestine. They may experience oppression or marginalisation based on these identities, but all of them additionally are under Zionism’s boot as Palestinians. When they are no longer oppressed for being Palestinian, it will be much easier for them to seek liberation along the other lines they are oppressed, such as gender, sexuality, and religion.
As for religion, some Palestinian parties are specifically Islamic, some are explicitly secular. It would be hard to say, but right now we are seeing very strong unity between the different Palestinian factions, including e.g. explicitly Islamic factions strongly condemning the attacks on Palestinian churches. Hamas, an Islamic party, is in alliance with the PFLP, which was founded by a Palestinian Christian and is explicitly secular. From what I can see, religion doesn’t seem to be a hugely dividing line among the Palestinian factions, and I hope that will continue to be the case when Palestinians begin the process of recovering from Zionism and establishing a long-term state.
In any case, Hamas, one of the most influential explicitly Islamic Palestinian factions, is also explicitly supportive of religious tolerance in its charter, and envisions a Palestinian state in which people are free to practise their own religions. I am hopeful that the current religious unity we can see will continue after the fall of Israel.
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