the initial argument only applies to Utopian Socialism anyway – fighting for your personal interest is exactly the point of communism, destroying all the enemies of the working class
It’s not “destroying all the enemies of the working class” but “destroying classes so we end up being working class”. The idea (as I understand it) is that working class is the one that creates things while bourgeois class is only a parasite. So everyone should be creating something and not sucking the blood of others.
Close. Neither case is fully correct
Communisn is the doctrine of the conditions of the abolition of the Proletariat
-Engels, The Principles of Communism
The bourgeoisie doesn’t create value, the proletariat does, correct, but dogmatic class warfare is anti-Marxist. Class warfare must service the overthrow of the Bourgeoisie via smashing the Bourgeois state, and replacing it with a Proletarian state that withers away as it untangles class contradictions. You cannot create Communism by killing all of the bourgeoisie, but by wresting their power as Socialism emerges from Capitalism.
Maybe I didn’t explain myself correctly. For the bourgeoisie class to disappear it’s not needed to kill anyone. Only take off the power they have and make them work as proletarians.
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huh?
When you feed the poor, you’re called a Saint
When you ask why the poor have no food, you’re called a communist.
I work a couple food service jobs and the waste brings a tear to my eye. And that’s just what makes it to the restaurant. Oh this tomato doesn’t look perfect? Throw it away.
Perfect tomato’s for sale: $10 each.
Then the pile of perfect tomatos rot as hungry eyes look upon it from outside the store. (They aren’t allowed inside, the vagrants might steal!) Rotten like the hearts of those who gatekeep necessities for profit and power.
That just Is word for word the peak of "grapes of wrath "
“The oranges needed to be dumped in kerosene and burned. It is cheaper than dumping them in the river and making sure the poor don’t take them… why? All for the sake of profit”
Yeah, and eating hot dogs also goes against human nature. That shit didn’t exist in 3,500 BCE.
are you really saying emulsified rat lips, chicken trimmings, porkins, and beef slurry didn’t exist in 3500 BCE?
Not in such a convenient package!
Charity can serve as a means of control. This is way Republicans advocate against social services.
The government cannot mandate that you attend church to receive EBT. A church can require you attend a service to feed you.
I’ve heard from friends in Utah, for example, that access to many social services is through the church. Friend was trying to rescue a girl from FLDS - pretty much all job training/housing required she play along with mainstream Mormonism.
Orgs like the Salvation Army are known to require trans people to detransition to recieve services as well.
Another benefit is the rent seeking - Goodwill is a good example. You can still turn a profit with the right combination of PR, and tying access to services based on things that’ll make you profit (Goodwill “provides employment” for disabled people - they are legally allowed to pay them far below minimum wage.)
It’s the two pillars of the contemporary Right - control and grifting.
Charity can also be used as a tax avoidance scheme and weaponized for political purposes; this is why the rich love it, through charity they are able to help themselves even further
We will feed you if you believe in our religion and work our fields, your true reward for your good works and piety will wait for you in heaven.
It’s like your pension plan in the sky.
We’re always going to end up with people who can manipulate a crowd being in charge. We’re stupid like that.
This is what I always find amusing about the Communist argument.
Like, the elected politicians and bureaucracy can’t be trusted enough to regulate industry under capitalism so we’ll centralize things and then trust them to regulate industry under Communism?
Edit: whoof, should’ve thought about human nature when I dared to criticize communism. Almost lime there is another lesson somehwere there.
so, it’s the goddamn weekend. How does everyone have so much free time this late on a Saturday? I’ll do my best to get back to y’all on a dirty capitalist’s time slot.
Like, the elected politicians and bureaucracy can’t be trusted enough to regulate industry under capitalism so we’ll centralize things and then trust them to regulate industry under Communism?
If that’s your understanding of Communism, then you need to read The State and Revolution. Quite a lot of Communist theory is concerned with eliminating the concept of beauracracy.
When have attempts to reduce bureaucracy not yielded even more bureaucracy ? This isn’t a state V corporation issue either, bureaucracy thrives in both these places.
AES states.
Sahel states ?
Actually Existing Socialist States.
Such as ?
In theory, democracy produces satisfactory outcomes…
Of course bourgeois democracy doesn’t produce satisfactory outcomes for the working class. It doesn’t represent the will of the working class, but rather that of the capitalist class.
Democracy does produce satisfactory outcomes, what changes reality is the structure of said democracy. Very few systems are direct democracies, and direct democracies themselves are flawed even in theory.
You should read the text.
Like, the elected politicians and bureaucracy can’t be trusted enough to regulate industry under capitalism so we’ll centralize things and then trust them to regulate industry under Communism?
Literally read State and Revolution by Lenin which talks about how people assume the state has a neutral character, but actually it has a class character reflecting who it is designed to serve.
It’s either this fairy tale, or its flip side, the myth that ‘private vices’ somehow add up to ‘public virtues’.
Communism Killed 100 Zillion People
Now the massive population of China and Venezuela and Vietnam and Cuba and California are going to take over the world
No, they aren’t doing Real Communism. That’s just Authoritarian State Capitalism.
Yes, we have to fight them. That’s why we need the western governments to spend trillions of dollars on private military services.
We have to kill all 100 Zillion of them. Because they’ve been infected with the Mind Virus of Communism.
I honestly can’t tell if this is sarcastic or not. There are too many people out there that sound just like this.
It’s sarcasm.
The zillion part definitely made me lean towards sarcasm, but I guess I can never be too sure with all the brainrot and bots out there. The Red Scare still lingers.
The Red Scare never died, and the Cold War never ended.
The Cold War ended in 1994, when the Russian government collapsed. We had a 15-20 year window in which Kennedy-esque American moderates thought they could dominate the industrial world through high finance while using a few “Rogue States” as punching bags.
And then 2008 happened, revealing that this was not working. And then we got Trump’s ahem national socialism ahem of interstate deals making minus immigration. And the only thing NATO states seem to agree on is everyone building even biggest militaries with which to duke it out across North Africa and Eastern Europe.
Now we’re flirting with Cold War 2, except it’s looking a lot hotter than the last one. Feels more like the prelude to WW1, tbh.
I’d describe it as a lull in the same general conflict. The primary contradiction remained. I do think there will be war, tragically.
There was a solid minute during the War on Terror when DC, Moscow, and Beijing were in full kumbahyah mode.
Turning the resource rich Middle East into a free fire zone had a broad popular appeal among industrial powers.
We are also born unable to care for ourselves. Or speak. Or…
Kids don’t want to work these days
I’m sure it’s the kids fault
Rents late you lazy toddler!
You shouldn’t even attempt to figure out their logic. People will say and do anything for power. They don’t believe what they say. It’s just an excuse to do what they want to you and your people.
They will find a way to make their twisted dreams your reality, even if they have to manufacture it.
“The good of the people” is a noble enough goal. Unfortunately, the people in charge of these movements are people who deliberately seek power, and for the most part, those people are vain greedy, brutal, a-holes.
people in charge of these movements are people who deliberately seek power
“Don’t trust anyone who tells you what to do”
“Okay, I’m not going to trust you.”
“No, you idiot! That’s not what I meant!”
So, anyway, let’s talk about why the Anarchists of the Spanish Civil War got absolutely rolled by the well organized and disciplined Fascists. Then maybe pop over to Russia, China, Cuba, Korea, and Vietnam, and consider why Marxism have had a better record on self defense.
the Anarchists of the Spanish Civil War got absolutely
rolledbetrayed by the well organized and disciplinedFascistsCommunistsFTFY
Please ignore the history of Anarchists fighting the Communists, it simply must have been the dirty Marxists betraying the noble Anarchists.
Are you referring to instances in which Anarchist groups in the Spanish Civil War took actions to hurt Communist groups? I won’t claim it didn’t happen, but I don’t know of examples.
I’m referring to the general distrust of Anarchists by the Communists. They fought against the Anarchists of Russia during the Russian Civil War, yet still supplied the Spanish Anarchists with weapons and vehicles. The general fact that Anarchists struggle with organization and Communists generally don’t to nearly the same degree compounded this.
By what manner do you say the Communists betrayed the Anarchists?
USSR-aligned groups, where they had power in Spain, in many instances used that power to imprison, smear, and seize weapons from, and attack non-USSR-aligned groups. You can look up José Cazorla’s anti-subversion measures in Madrid, or PSUC’s attacks on POUM during the Barcelona May Days.
Yes, and the anti-USSR groups used their power to imprison, smear, seize weapons from, and attack USSR-aligned groups.
It wasn’t a “betrayal,” it was a conflict in how the war should be fought. The Anarchists tried to stick to decentralization even within the context of war, and lost. Had the Anarchists adopted a more Marxist line, they may have succeeded.
Hate to be betrayed by not having enough tanks sent to me. Maybe if the Spanish anarchists had all the military equipment they wanted, they would have won, but the war-torn Russians couldn’t afford to waste equipment on the shittily organized anarchists, so now I’m going to whinge about it for a century as though that makes them equivalent to (or worse than) the fascists who actually killed them!
The Spanish Civil War wasn’t anarchists vs fascists. There was a popular front that included anarchists, socialists, communists, liberals. The USSR-associated groups made a grab for power over the anarchist factions, which can’t have helped the war effort.
There was logistical involvement from the USSR itself, which is what I thought you were referring to. I have nothing to say one way or another about internal factionalism, besides that the whole basis of your riff is still equivocating with or in fact making the Communists out to be worse than the Francoists, which I find to be in poor taste. You come off even worse than those dweebs who fellate the Makhnovist.
Do you have nothing to say to Cowbee?
My only goal was to push back on the notion that the Spanish Civil War was lost due to anarchist disorganization. I’m not sure what response the other commenter warrants, it’s just a quip.
- Don’t listen to anyone in authority
- Don’t collaborate anyone in authority
- Don’t submit to anyone in authority
…
The people in authority betrayed us.
People = problem
Yeah people are born selfish yet so generous with their idiotic ideas
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Communist logix
we need to abolish private property so everybody has equal power.
we class of people to maintain public ownership
After all, how can we enforce public ownership without a more powerful class of enforcers?
we need to abolish private property so everybody has equal power.
Abolishing private property isn’t about equalizing power, necessarily. It’s to end Capitalist production, which is necessarily exploitative and results in Monopoly Capitalism, aka Imperialism. Abolishing Private Property allows us to produce based on needs, not profits for a few individuals.
we class of people to maintain public ownership
Communists advocate for the abolition of classes.
After all, how can we enforce public ownership without a more powerful class of enforcers?
That’s a pretty terrible misreading of Communist structures. Communists advocate for abolition of the State, via creating a government as an “administration of things,” similar to how the Post Office functions, but for all of production. The goal of protecting the revolution is done by the Proletariat, the most advanced among them making up the Vanguard. There isn’t a separate “class.”
What does it mean to have a misreading in this context (last point)? You are just reiterating what they said but reassuring us that the most “advanced” among them are not going to turn into a ruling class because…?
Any form of political power is poison. You don’t get to a state-less, egalitarian society by going in the exact opposite direction, by enforcing a ruling class and an hierarchy like any else.
And you can see this practically not in any massacre, genocide, famine or war communist countries have inflicted, these are up for discussion. The actual evidence that this is not the right path is in the lack of accountability of the governing Party under communism, the lack of freedom of speech inside that party and the decision making body, the absolute discipline required to be in it or you get kicked out for having a different opinion for any topic, the gradual increase in authoritarianism by it and the Party’s gradual alienation from the people. These all are fundamental structural problems that stem from the fact that you set out to solve a problem by endorsing it and practising it.
People are never going to free themselves from hierarchy and the state if they don’t learn to live without it in practise, take decisions for themselves, develop the skills, knowledge and tactics to abolish it etc. You are/become what you practise in your life, not what you preach.
What does it mean to have a misreading in this context (last point)? You are just reiterating what they said but reassuring us that the most “advanced” among them are not going to turn into a ruling class because…?
What is a class? If you can meaningfully explain what a class is, then you will understand the answer. Here’s an example: is the Post Office manager a separate class from the drivers? No.
Any form of political power is poison. You don’t get to a state-less, egalitarian society by going in the exact opposite direction, by enforcing a ruling class and an hierarchy like any else.
What is a State, and what do Communists mean when they say Communism will be State-less? What is a ruling class? If I say a post-office driver is a Capitalist, this is wrong. Correct analysis of class dynamics, where they draw their power, and their social relation with others, determines Class. Engels specifically describes the withering of the state as a transformation from a tool by which one class oppresses another into an administration of things.
And you can see this practically not in any massacre, genocide, famine or war communist countries have inflicted, these are up for discussion. The actual evidence that this is not the right path is in the lack of accountability of the governing Party under communism, the lack of freedom of speech inside that party and the decision making body, the absolute discipline required to be in it or you get kicked out for having a different opinion for any topic, the gradual increase in authoritarianism by it and the Party’s gradual alienation from the people. These all are fundamental structural problems that stem from the fact that you set out to solve a problem by endorsing it and practising it.
These are frankly false statements. There is accountability, there is freedom of discussion. Being a fascist or liberal will indeed get you kicked out, as it should. Communists don’t believe the problem is with the State, but with Capitalism, and as such use the State against the bourgeoisie to end Capitalism.
People are never going to free themselves from hierarchy and the state if they don’t learn to live without it in practise, take decisions for themselves, develop the skills, knowledge and tactics to abolish it etc. You are/become what you practise in your life, not what you preach.
Communists don’t believe “hierarchy” is a problem. That’s an anarchist concern.
All in all, I highly encourage you to read both Blackshirts and Reds, as well as The State and Revolution. The former will help recontextualize Communism and Communist states, correcting popular myths and taking a realistic, critical look at AES. The latter will elaborate on the Communist theory of the State, which is fundamentally different from the Anarchist theory of the State. Both are generally easy reads.
I don’t get why you purposefully obfuscate what ruling class I am referring to. What kind of example are managers and drivers when I am clearly talking about the people comprising the decision making body or Communist party under communism? I think that’s simple enough and also the fact that any communist government that survived long enough gradually became more and more authoritarian, more detached from the people - never in the other direction. The evidence is there and we both know it. The burden of proof that this isn’t the case is on you, not me…
You simply dismissed my claims without any evidence on that. Although you seem to like to meticulously answer every sentence separately, you dismiss the core of the argument. I understand most communism movements start off with noble and admirable intentions and I’m not ignoring this, but the fundamental issue here is that in the longterm, by design, in order to preserve state power, for whatever reason, you’d be heading to the opposite direction of a stateless society.
I’ve read enough Lenin to understand this from his descriptions of the ideal Party. I don’t need reading recommendations, thank you. I am not saying anything profound here, this is like mainstream critique of marxism.
I don’t get why you purposefully obfuscate what ruling class I am referring to. What kind of example are managers and drivers when I am clearly talking about the people comprising the decision making body or Communist party under communism? I think that’s simple enough and also the fact that any communist government that survived long enough gradually became more and more authoritarian, more detached from the people - never in the other direction. The evidence is there and we both know it. The burden of proof that this isn’t the case is on you, not me…
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The Communist Party was not a class, hence why I asked you to prove it to be.
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You claim it’s a “fact” that Communist countries “get more authoritarian,” and left that hanging and unsupported.
In both cases, the burden of proof is on you.
You simply dismissed my claims without any evidence on that. Although you seem to like to meticulously answer every sentence separately, you dismiss the core of the argument. I understand most communism movements start off with noble and admirable intentions and I’m not ignoring this, but the fundamental issue here is that in the longterm, by design, in order to preserve state power, for whatever reason, you’d be heading to the opposite direction of a stateless society.
I dismissed blanket claims with no reasoning or evidence. There was no logic, just blanket statements. Additionally, you seem to be under the impression that Communist countries have ever been at a point where they could abolish the state entirely, which in the age of Imperialism that’s impossible due to foreign interference. There’s good reason why Anarchism has never lasted at scale.
I’ve read enough Lenin to understand this from his descriptions of the ideal Party. I don’t need reading recommendations, thank you. I am not saying anything profound here, this is like mainstream critique of marxism.
You’ve demonstrated a lack of understanding of both the history of Communist states and the general Communist theory of the State. Just because you are making common anarchist critiques of Marxism doesn’t make them correct, hence why I have tried to highlight the differences between the goals of anarchism and Communism, the nuances in the Communist theory of the State you appear to be unaware of, and provided additional sources in case you want to learn more for yourself.
If you want to keep engaging, I ask that you at least back up some of your points with either evidence or logic, and take into account that Communists aren’t Anarchists and thus have different goals and methods, otherwise I think we are just going to keep talking past each other.
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You say it’s the goal of the proletariat to protect the revolution, but why would they? Each proletariat would benefit from the revolution’s failure- they could live better lives as the bourgeois. You talk about the proletariat like they are some monolithic entity, with a single mind and goal. You talk big about helping the individual, but cannot see beyond their class. The proletariat is a person, with needs, desires and opinions. What father would hold the abstract ideals of the “revolution” over the life of his sick daughter? Any father I know would do anything for the safety of his children, even hoard life-saving medicine from others.
You say it’s the goal of the proletariat to protect the revolution, but why would they? Each proletariat would benefit from the revolution’s failure- they could live better lives as the bourgeois
This is absurd. That’s like saying the French Revolution should’ve been sabotaged because the Proletariat would have fared better as nobility.
You talk about the proletariat like they are some monolithic entity, with a single mind and goal.
No, I do not. I speak of the Proletariat as a class, which shares class interests and class dynamics, ie they are all workers who create the value exploited from them.
The proletariat is a person, with needs, desires and opinions. What father would hold the abstract ideals of the “revolution” over the life of his sick daughter?
What is this wild tangent? Why do you think a father would side against his and his daughters interests and continue to live in sqaulor? Do you think revolution is an aesthetic choice, and not a practical conclusion?
Any father I know would do anything for the safety of his children, even hoard life-saving medicine from others.
Revolution is when no medicine for sick daughters
Ok. I’m getting tired. You bested me this round. Have a nice day.
Having been the one who brought it up, (and since I got here first) I guess I will super duper reluctantly be the enforcer. I super don’t want to y’all guys! But this is for the good of the collective!
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What on Earth are you talking about?
Edit: oh lmao it’s the Zionist landlady
He means neoliberal conservatism with social demicrat characteristics
Ah, the fascist route.
Well, sure, it’s statism so that is built-in
