Honestly how is this gatekeeping? That word gets slinged around a lot and it using it here seems like it diminishes the real situations where the word is useful. So they’re limiting access to the game from people who what? It’s hard for everyone, they’re not being selective about the difficulty somehow.
Except some people have disabilities that prevent them from enjoying difficulty in a game. Some people just want the ambiance and story. Some people have reflexes that are not as sharp as they used to be. They should be able to also enjoy this art form as much as others
Eh I’m sorry but I still don’t buy it. Making it a game about ambiance and story makes it a different game, doesn’t it? Every game has a target audience right? Why does it seem like it’s just games like this that get this sort of outrage thrown at it? FPS games have a similar level of entry yet no one is out there demanding they make Counter Strike less twitchy.
Counter strike is a multiplayer game, I’m talking about solo game (and even mp games can have difficulty accessibility options, like Tekken 8 does).
About your target audience thing, I’d love to play dark souls and elden ring for the exploration, awesome music and ambiance but the difficulty and slow paced gameplay always put me off. Or to take the other example of Celeste, some people play it because of the difficulty and fun platforming, but I played it for the story and music and I loved it. Giving accessibility options will help people enjoy their game how they want with close to 0 additional development time cost.
I should say that I appreciate the candid discussion, nice to have a civilized chat on the internet. Also - in the end it wouldn’t really bother me if Fromsoft did implement a simple difficulty slider. I think it’d be a bit more difficult than you are assuming however since it is also a multiplayer game. I guess they could limit the difficulty options to offline players only.
But as a very long time fan, I’d be remiss if I didn’t point out that they have actually gone a long way to addressing the difficulty complaints of their games. ER is their most accessible game and there are a lot of in-game opportunities to customize the amount of difficulty one faces. I could go on and on about it but I’ll leave it at that for now.
I think it’d be a bit more difficult than you are assuming however since it is also a multiplayer game. I guess they could limit the difficulty options to offline players only.
For online play, you can just match people who are using the same difficulty, and perhaps disable PVP entirely for Easy difficulty. For everything but PVP, it’s not that big a deal. Seamless Co-Op Mod works with the Easy Mode mod. If modders can make a coherent experience, I’m sure From could. If they wanted to. Which they don’t.
I think ER had a great difficulty design since you could go to other areas to overlevel. But I haven’t played it or the DLC so I can’t really give a specific opinion on the implementation in fromsoft games, I just think that general anti-accessibility statement like the original quote are uninformed and ableist opinions. And you’re welcome for the discussion!
Yeah I see where you’re coming from. I know as a creator it’s really hard to strike a balance between achieving an artistic vision and separating their pride in that from real accessibiliy concerns.
And like I said in my other comment, I cherish the way Fromsoft uses difficulty to direct players and tell stories and I hesitate to want to do anything to water that down. Too many games take the route of making that game for everyone and Fromsoft games are for me that gaming oasis I can escape to.
I believe a difficulty slider in a game specifically Elden Ring would destroy the game design. Biggest example is my own experience after walking out the starting area seeing and having that horse fella as the first thing I saw and tried to kill for longer than I would like to admit (before going to Google) if there was just a slider to slide down so I could kill that guy I would have never learned how to play the game and explore and kill bosses to level up. Not saying sliders don’t work in ANY game but I just think it would ruin the experience of elden ring.
I mean you could just not use the difficulty slider. I’ve never turned down the difficulty in any game even if I could have, but I don’t begrudge people that do if they’re struggling.
Making it a game about ambiance and story makes it a different game, doesn’t it?
Not really. The experience with the Easy Mode mod in place is pretty much the same. I saw more “You Died” screens on easymode than the typical player sees on regular mode. The only difference is that I didn’t waste my money on Elden Ring by having to give up less than 10% into the game like I did on Bloodborne after 50 hours or so.
Some of us, especially older gamers, just don’t have the reflexes for that type of game. Unfortunately for us, Fromsoft writes GREAT stories and Let’sPlays are still kinda boring.
There are plenty of videos showing people beating the game using one hand with disability controllers as well as entirely with voice controls or controllers that were specifically designed to be as stupid as possible (like bananas).
they’re gatekeeping the game story and experience, and ability to finish experiencing the game, from people who might be disabled or simply bad at games.
by making the game more accessible they would allow more people to enjoy the whole game
You’re consistently glossing over the point about accessibility. Why shouldn’t high budget games make it easier for people with disabilities to play them?
“Gatekeeping: the activity of controlling, and usually limiting, general access to something.”
The lack of difficulty sliders make the game inaccessible to people who have no ability or desire for the unforgiving experience, nor any ability/desire to “Git Gud Scrubs”. It’s intentionally left out to exclude those people. That makes it “gatekeeping” by the definition for the word.
This is substantiated by the fact that a mode to make the game easier and a mode to make the game harder are in the top 10 downloaded mods for Elden Ring. If you leave out the loaders and modutils, those same mods are top-5. This is basically unheard of in most games.
You can argue that you approve of this gatekeeping, but it’s silly to die on the “it’s not really gatekeeping” hill.
If you don’t like spicy food. Don’t buy spicy food. They’re not gatekeeping food from you. You have other options.
If you don’t want to “git gud”. You can use summoned spirits. NPCs, other players. There already is a difficulty slider. It’s one you set for yourself.
You always have the option to come back when you’re stronger. The boss is not going anywhere.
If you don’t like spicy food. Don’t buy spicy food
I don’t know about you, but every spicy restaurant I know has a little “difficulty slider” where you get to ask them not to pour a gallon of ghost pepper into it. It’s about making the customer happy.
If you don’t want to “git gud”. You can use summoned spirits. NPCs, other players
Or I can fucking mod the piece of shit and complain about it on forums because it’s fucking stupid. But I want BURN Bloodborne because I can’t mod it.
There already is a difficulty slider. It’s one you set for yourself.
Yeah. I’m getting really good at archery. Think I’ll cut my eye out. Natural difficulty slider
Why is it every time I express a valid criticism about an otherwise story-heavy game with a stupid difficulty-related gimmic the cringe-posse comes out and tries to convince me the game is perfect and no human being would find my opinion valid. Like seriously what I tell my little nieces and nephews, if you don’t have anything nice to say, move along.
In other news, I DO respect the Viva La Dirt League reference.
You can summon spirit ashes. You can level your character to become stronger. You can summon NPCs and player for boss fights.
I don’t like those options. So I don’t do that. I make it harder on myself, by forgoing those options, I want the challenge of doing it alone.
But if YOU want to make it easier, and slide the difficulty down. And summon ashes or npcs or other players, You can do that. You have that option.
You bought a game that you knew would be full of “difficult” bosses, from a company that has never had an official “difficulty slider” on any of their games in this genre. And now you sit and complain about there not being an official “difficulty slider”.
Do you also go to a vegan restaurant and complain they’re not inclusive because you can’t order meat?
You bought a game that you knew would be full of “difficult” bosses
I bought a game that I knew had a working Easy Mode mod. I would not have bought it if it hadn’t. Because the designers are assholes, but assholes who can write a decent story.
And now you sit and complain about there not being an official “difficulty slider”.
Yes, I do. And you sit and complain about another human being having an opinion despite the fact you could just NOT complain about other human beings having an opinion. Funny how people “sit and” do things.
Do you also go to a vegan restaurant and complain they’re not inclusive because you can’t order meat?
No, but that’s not an apple-to-apple comparison, making that a False Analogy fallacy. For two reasons. First, whether I agree with it or not, veganism is an ethical position and they’re refusing to serve any meat on the menu because they think it’s morally wrong to. Do you think Fromsoft thinks they’re “going to hell” if they put in a difficulty slider? Second, vegan restaurants are ABOUT veganism. There’s no reason to choose to eat at a vegan restaurant unless you or someone in your party is looking to have a meal without meat in it for some reason. There’s plenty of reasons to play Fromsoft games but at lower difficulty. Most people don’t like Bloodborne or Elden Ring “because it’s difficult/unforgiving”. They like it because of the story. Anyone who would opt out of playing those games because someone else could play them on easier has serious issues.
Soooo a game, which is not paid for nor developed by the community, and is rather purchased with the knowledge that it is a difficult game which will require ample skill to surpass its many challenges, should put in difficulty sliders despite them fundamentally going against the very nature of the game itself?
Soooo a game, which is not paid for nor developed by the community, and is rather purchased with the knowledge that it is a difficult game which will require ample skill to surpass its many challenges, should put in difficulty sliders despite them fundamentally going against the very nature of the game itself?
Fucking YES it should. I didn’t buy ER until I was 100% certain it had an easymode mod. So I got what I wanted out of it despite them shoving both their middles fingers at me and telling me I’m not worthy to buy their product because they’re intentionally hiding the good part (the story) behind gameplay I didn’t want. I’m still pissed that I wasted my money buying Bloodborne. You want me to get over that, cut me a check.
As I said to the other hater, what is with the ER-fanboys turning the chat into full-on-reddit level bitchfest defending it? Why don’t you just let me have my valid opinions? I know, heaven forbid there exists someone who has an opinion that doesn’t match yours.
Honestly how is this gatekeeping? That word gets slinged around a lot and it using it here seems like it diminishes the real situations where the word is useful. So they’re limiting access to the game from people who what? It’s hard for everyone, they’re not being selective about the difficulty somehow.
Except some people have disabilities that prevent them from enjoying difficulty in a game. Some people just want the ambiance and story. Some people have reflexes that are not as sharp as they used to be. They should be able to also enjoy this art form as much as others
Eh I’m sorry but I still don’t buy it. Making it a game about ambiance and story makes it a different game, doesn’t it? Every game has a target audience right? Why does it seem like it’s just games like this that get this sort of outrage thrown at it? FPS games have a similar level of entry yet no one is out there demanding they make Counter Strike less twitchy.
Counter strike is a multiplayer game, I’m talking about solo game (and even mp games can have difficulty accessibility options, like Tekken 8 does). About your target audience thing, I’d love to play dark souls and elden ring for the exploration, awesome music and ambiance but the difficulty and slow paced gameplay always put me off. Or to take the other example of Celeste, some people play it because of the difficulty and fun platforming, but I played it for the story and music and I loved it. Giving accessibility options will help people enjoy their game how they want with close to 0 additional development time cost.
I should say that I appreciate the candid discussion, nice to have a civilized chat on the internet. Also - in the end it wouldn’t really bother me if Fromsoft did implement a simple difficulty slider. I think it’d be a bit more difficult than you are assuming however since it is also a multiplayer game. I guess they could limit the difficulty options to offline players only.
But as a very long time fan, I’d be remiss if I didn’t point out that they have actually gone a long way to addressing the difficulty complaints of their games. ER is their most accessible game and there are a lot of in-game opportunities to customize the amount of difficulty one faces. I could go on and on about it but I’ll leave it at that for now.
For online play, you can just match people who are using the same difficulty, and perhaps disable PVP entirely for Easy difficulty. For everything but PVP, it’s not that big a deal. Seamless Co-Op Mod works with the Easy Mode mod. If modders can make a coherent experience, I’m sure From could. If they wanted to. Which they don’t.
I think ER had a great difficulty design since you could go to other areas to overlevel. But I haven’t played it or the DLC so I can’t really give a specific opinion on the implementation in fromsoft games, I just think that general anti-accessibility statement like the original quote are uninformed and ableist opinions. And you’re welcome for the discussion!
Yeah I see where you’re coming from. I know as a creator it’s really hard to strike a balance between achieving an artistic vision and separating their pride in that from real accessibiliy concerns.
And like I said in my other comment, I cherish the way Fromsoft uses difficulty to direct players and tell stories and I hesitate to want to do anything to water that down. Too many games take the route of making that game for everyone and Fromsoft games are for me that gaming oasis I can escape to.
I believe a difficulty slider in a game specifically Elden Ring would destroy the game design. Biggest example is my own experience after walking out the starting area seeing and having that horse fella as the first thing I saw and tried to kill for longer than I would like to admit (before going to Google) if there was just a slider to slide down so I could kill that guy I would have never learned how to play the game and explore and kill bosses to level up. Not saying sliders don’t work in ANY game but I just think it would ruin the experience of elden ring.
I mean you could just not use the difficulty slider. I’ve never turned down the difficulty in any game even if I could have, but I don’t begrudge people that do if they’re struggling.
Not really. The experience with the Easy Mode mod in place is pretty much the same. I saw more “You Died” screens on easymode than the typical player sees on regular mode. The only difference is that I didn’t waste my money on Elden Ring by having to give up less than 10% into the game like I did on Bloodborne after 50 hours or so.
Some of us, especially older gamers, just don’t have the reflexes for that type of game. Unfortunately for us, Fromsoft writes GREAT stories and Let’sPlays are still kinda boring.
Being bad at games isn’t a disability.
Say that to the person that has lost an arm and is playing with a special controller
grow a new one
“To defeat Godrick the Grafted, one must become Godrick the Grafted.”
Blocked
There are plenty of videos showing people beating the game using one hand with disability controllers as well as entirely with voice controls or controllers that were specifically designed to be as stupid as possible (like bananas).
But it involves much higher commitment than a regular run
they’re gatekeeping the game story and experience, and ability to finish experiencing the game, from people who might be disabled or simply bad at games.
by making the game more accessible they would allow more people to enjoy the whole game
it’s a pretty standard example of gatekeeping
But the game that the other half is enjoying is the difficulty and the reward of experiencing the story street overcoming said difficulty
Yes and so accessibility options that allow the player to customize the experience are what is being suggested.
If the game were made trivially easy then it would be alienating the people you describe.
Player choice is how games are made more accessible.
The difficulty is the experience, home slice. People need to accept that some things just aren’t for them.
Why does anyone NEED to be excluded? Many games have demonstrated that accessibility options allow more people to play the game the way they want.
This is something we can start to expect from AAA games.
Do you need others to fail the game, or to belittle them for turning down the difficulty, so that you can feel good about yourself?
Why does anyone NEED to play a videogame? There are plenty of other games out there tailor made for every skill level and abilities.
You’re consistently glossing over the point about accessibility. Why shouldn’t high budget games make it easier for people with disabilities to play them?
Because accessibility is not feasible in every case without completely changing the game.
Fucking g*mers
Oh lawd he used the g slur.
“Gatekeeping: the activity of controlling, and usually limiting, general access to something.”
The lack of difficulty sliders make the game inaccessible to people who have no ability or desire for the unforgiving experience, nor any ability/desire to “Git Gud Scrubs”. It’s intentionally left out to exclude those people. That makes it “gatekeeping” by the definition for the word.
This is substantiated by the fact that a mode to make the game easier and a mode to make the game harder are in the top 10 downloaded mods for Elden Ring. If you leave out the loaders and modutils, those same mods are top-5. This is basically unheard of in most games.
You can argue that you approve of this gatekeeping, but it’s silly to die on the “it’s not really gatekeeping” hill.
If you don’t like spicy food. Don’t buy spicy food. They’re not gatekeeping food from you. You have other options.
If you don’t want to “git gud”. You can use summoned spirits. NPCs, other players. There already is a difficulty slider. It’s one you set for yourself.
You always have the option to come back when you’re stronger. The boss is not going anywhere.
Spicy food does have a difficulty slider. It’s pretty difficult to find a curry in Australia that’s not so full of cream it’s basically a fruit salad.
And so does Elden Ring. Your inability to find it is not unlike you inability to find a spicy curry.
I found it. It’s in Nexusmods instead of in the game.
I don’t know about you, but every spicy restaurant I know has a little “difficulty slider” where you get to ask them not to pour a gallon of ghost pepper into it. It’s about making the customer happy.
Or I can fucking mod the piece of shit and complain about it on forums because it’s fucking stupid. But I want BURN Bloodborne because I can’t mod it.
Yeah. I’m getting really good at archery. Think I’ll cut my eye out. Natural difficulty slider
Why is it every time I express a valid criticism about an otherwise story-heavy game with a stupid difficulty-related gimmic the cringe-posse comes out and tries to convince me the game is perfect and no human being would find my opinion valid. Like seriously what I tell my little nieces and nephews, if you don’t have anything nice to say, move along.
In other news, I DO respect the Viva La Dirt League reference.
You have so many options to make it easier.
You can summon spirit ashes. You can level your character to become stronger. You can summon NPCs and player for boss fights.
I don’t like those options. So I don’t do that. I make it harder on myself, by forgoing those options, I want the challenge of doing it alone.
But if YOU want to make it easier, and slide the difficulty down. And summon ashes or npcs or other players, You can do that. You have that option.
You bought a game that you knew would be full of “difficult” bosses, from a company that has never had an official “difficulty slider” on any of their games in this genre. And now you sit and complain about there not being an official “difficulty slider”.
Do you also go to a vegan restaurant and complain they’re not inclusive because you can’t order meat?
Like the third-party Easy Mode mod.
I bought a game that I knew had a working Easy Mode mod. I would not have bought it if it hadn’t. Because the designers are assholes, but assholes who can write a decent story.
Yes, I do. And you sit and complain about another human being having an opinion despite the fact you could just NOT complain about other human beings having an opinion. Funny how people “sit and” do things.
No, but that’s not an apple-to-apple comparison, making that a False Analogy fallacy. For two reasons. First, whether I agree with it or not, veganism is an ethical position and they’re refusing to serve any meat on the menu because they think it’s morally wrong to. Do you think Fromsoft thinks they’re “going to hell” if they put in a difficulty slider? Second, vegan restaurants are ABOUT veganism. There’s no reason to choose to eat at a vegan restaurant unless you or someone in your party is looking to have a meal without meat in it for some reason. There’s plenty of reasons to play Fromsoft games but at lower difficulty. Most people don’t like Bloodborne or Elden Ring “because it’s difficult/unforgiving”. They like it because of the story. Anyone who would opt out of playing those games because someone else could play them on easier has serious issues.
Soooo a game, which is not paid for nor developed by the community, and is rather purchased with the knowledge that it is a difficult game which will require ample skill to surpass its many challenges, should put in difficulty sliders despite them fundamentally going against the very nature of the game itself?
Fucking YES it should. I didn’t buy ER until I was 100% certain it had an easymode mod. So I got what I wanted out of it despite them shoving both their middles fingers at me and telling me I’m not worthy to buy their product because they’re intentionally hiding the good part (the story) behind gameplay I didn’t want. I’m still pissed that I wasted my money buying Bloodborne. You want me to get over that, cut me a check.
As I said to the other hater, what is with the ER-fanboys turning the chat into full-on-reddit level bitchfest defending it? Why don’t you just let me have my valid opinions? I know, heaven forbid there exists someone who has an opinion that doesn’t match yours.