Alright, so, something I’ve been talking about with my therapist a lot, but I thoughts folks out here could have interesting povs.
To sum it up, I’m constantly trying to act like a saint (figuratively, I’m an atheist). There’s one exception to this, people holding power and making others miserable in any way.
But basically, you know, this whole mentality of banishing anger, jealousy, egoism, selfishness, greed, desire for power and authority and all that? That’s me.
I don’t mean I manage to do so constantly, but that’s what I strive for.
One could think, and I did think, it was a desire for social praise. But really, when I get praised, which happen a lot, I don’t care and that’s more awkward that anything (like : woa dude, it’s not the Oscars or something, chill out). And little by little, I started to think it didn’t have much to do with being praised, that’s just striving to live as I think it’s better to live. To live a life I’ll me content with when the grim reaper will come and all praises won’t mean anything anymore.
My therapist thinks it’s not really an issue as long as it doesn’t cause myself pain (which it does because I’m deaf to my own needs 50% of the times).
But I don’t see a satisfying way to live apart from that.
One potential misinterpretation I’d like to prevent. It’s a very strong drive, but it doesn’t make me blind. It really doesn’t happen a lot but whenever I’m angry, I’m not feeling guilty. I know why I feel this, it’s just that I didn’t have any other way to manage a situation/feeling. I’ll just strive to do better next time by trying to modify the situation so that anger will not be the most probable answer.
Do you find it weird? Anyone adopting this kind of behavior? Maybe everyone does. It may sound a bit megalomaniac, like hey I’m exceptional, but it really isn’t what I mean. To my own eyes, I’m not a bad or a good person. I’m just trying to be what I want. If somebody tries to be someone different, it’s all fine by me.
TL;DR : Is having high moral standards for one’s self weird or toxic? Does my message actually sound megalomaniac?
You may want to familiarize yourself with the philosophy of Stoicism. It sounds very similar to what you describe. I’d recommend starting with a “sampler” like “The Daily Stoic,” by Ryan Holiday. Epictetus and Marcus Auralius are two of the biggest names in terms of “fathers” of this philosophy.
Don’t go by whatever impression Hollywood or society may have left you with about the word “stoic.” It doesn’t mean “without emotion.”
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An interesting question, thanks for asking it. I’m guessing I’m not the only one thinking about their own behaviour in framing an answer.
Two questions for you:
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You accidentally drop a plate in the kitchen and it smashes. How do you feel? Are you angry? Frustrated that you’ve behaved less than perfectly?
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Your friend does the same thing. How do you feel then?
If you’re like me and more likely to be forgiving to them than yourself for what is obviously an accident, why?
Why do you treat yourself harsher than yourself?
For me, it’s because at some level I consider myself better than them so shouldn’t have made such a mistake, even though at other levels, I think almost everyone else is better than me. Looking at my own mind logically for just this scenario, I have to conclude it cannot be trusted on the matter of self image. I think that’s accurate.
And how do you define behaving perfectly? That’s a subjective standard, you cannot achieve it to everyone’s satisfaction. You’ve set yourself up for failure - that doesn’t feel healthy, it feels like a trap set that’s impossible not to walk into. I’m pretty sure nobody trustworthy has ever has a moment of absolute clarity that allows them to answer all these questions satisfactorily - I’m getting old now and as far as I can see, we’re all just trying to figure this stuff out as best we can.
There’s the phrase - be kind to yourself. As I’ve got older, I think that’s more true than ever. I’ve tried to honour it, alongside being kind to others. I don’t always succeed, but I figure that as long as I’m trying, it’s /good enough/.
Like you, I’m an Athiest. I’m not living to a standard to score points. I try not to mostly live within society’s norms because I’m selfish, and it’s easier than not doing so. Upset people cause fuss. Breaking laws has consequences. I dislike fuss so I try not to cause it.
I hope you find your way. I think your therapist is on the right track, but what answers are right for you aren’t always clear to see.
Hmmm… If I drop a plate and it smashes, I won’t feel much. Maybe a bit pissed for 5 secs if I’m in a hurry. I’ll just take another. If a friends does it, I won’t react in any specific way. In both cases, there’s no… moral question involved for me, I think. Do you think there could be?
I’m striving to be as just and kind as it is possible in a given situation. And sincerely, I truly think I’m doing this for myself. Well, it’s complicated since I’m also the kind of person who tries to please everyone he loves. But… I feel my reward is not any praises, praises are bland, they don’t understand what is at play. Not points but searching for the best behavior, nourishing the best ideas, giving minimal place to the others.
I sincerely think I’m not considering myself better or worse than anyone. My way is a moral one. A certain of moral, as well. So that’s what I strive for. I totally admit other people could strive for something else entirely and I wish them luck in this, except if it’s toxic and power hungry.
So since I very rarely compare myself to others, the question of my value compared to theirs makes no sense for me. The question of my own value to my own eyes either. I am. I don’t have to prove anything to anyone, even to myself. Being us enough.
But I find your answer very delicate, wise and kind so thank you very much for writing this, truly!
Thanks for the reply - interesting response. I think I might be projecting my own likely response to the plate question, so in hindsight it’s probably not very useful other than identifying we react differently.
I sort of relate to the OP, except I fail at acting correctly all the time instead of succeeding.
For the plate example, it doesn’t do much for me either because it’s just an accident. If you instead relate something to a level of skill or emotional response, I see it a bit differently. People accuse me of being “too hard on myself” also, but they just don’t understand the situation.
For example: other people are better employees than me. It doesn’t matter how hard I work, I cannot match their output. So I sometimes work extra unpaid hours to help ease the burden from my competent coworkers.
Another example: Many people are able to just not react when someone acts like a dick to them. I have a tendency to react, which is wrong.
Another example: most people have other things going on and many difficulties in their lives. I have no difficulties or complications, so I have no right to complain or do things incorrectly whereas others do.
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Moralities aside, some find it liberating to stop caring what is & isn’t considered “weird.” Conformity definitely has its advantages, but at least consider the possibility that, for you, it may not be worth the costs. Take it from Al, or DEVO themselves for that matter.
As for morality, I’m not really a fan of it in its conventional senses. Philosophy prof. Hans-Georg Moeller, author of The Moral Fool: A Case for Amorality.
I believe I try to live my life in a very similar way. I believe there are a lot of us who try to do this. But I do not believe everyone does that. There are many people who are malicious and they know they are. Also I feel the same about pride and praise. In the past I was pointed out I hold myself in too high regard which can result in me beeing patronizing. And I try to work on that since then. Because I feel this is not right and I do want to strive for right.
Especially you wrote in comments something like: You try to do your best considering your environment, your own limitations and even your own weakneses.
So given that, I believe you are making one mistake. I would like to expand on your limitations part.
If you feel this behavior makes you forget your needs this in not “the best you could do”. This is the same as you forgetting to sleep.
If you are forgetting about yourself like rest, having fun, eat properly, maintaining your mental health. This is not your best or “perfect behaviour” in long term. Because of ignoring your own needs you will not be able to do your best tomorrow or in 10 years or will live few years less to do good or you will not have friends or be part of a community to achieve even better things together. Something like that.
Also another thought popped in my mind I do not have an answer for and I would like to see your perspective on that. I try to avoid as little responsibility as I can. And I see myself as one who is trying to do his best. But. But when I look on myself objectively I live quite a normal life: I have a job and a family and some hobbies. I try to be there for my friends and family. So asking myself. How is this the best I can do? I am not volunteering or anything like that? So is this “feeling” I am trying my best just a cover for comfort, so I do not have to do some real sacrifices for community?
First, kind stranger, thank you very much for you answer. It’s quite funny that I used to be quite patronizing too until I went through a major depression and became a slightly different person.
And yes I think I see what you mean. My therapist recently told me something quite close, but I’m not sure I’ll find the words to translate it to English. But yes, clearly, I’m trapped in a “overdoing-collapse” cycle I still need to learn to manage in a better way. Although… maybe I’m making progress in this regard, I tend to collapse less and less heavily, and I sometimes take breaks.
The thought you brought up us very interesting, and my own answer us quite simple. To contextualize, I’ve been active in a few community organizations in the past, then it all stopped when I moved to another city. Now, I just happen to like people I sometimes meet and try to behave as I described. But it’s quite close to a normal life too. Closer than before at least.
And so, I met a thought similar to yours a few days ago, an answer came from my heart : “I don’t know. But what I know is that wishing I was something/someone else that the thing/person I am, trying to force myself to do something I currently can’t do is preparing myself for a life of guilt and misery, and likely make my loved ones pay for this guilt and misery. And that can’t be good”.
How does this sound to you? I’m not sure about it, but I’ve sticked with this answer ever since.
This answer is very good and is consistent with with your belief to consider your limitations.
However I see myself somehow different since I do not have depression or other mental issues I am aware of.
So I believe I could take some extra time to volunteer and I hope I will be able to bring myself to do just that. But since I have a young baby it will of course be time limited. So I will probably start small and just take a bag to my walks and pickup some trash.
Although making this conversation feels like bragging to myself that I am a good person (by trying my best).
But hey this conversation is still very interesting and I would like to keep it going.
Do you believe religions/churches are meant to be just communities of people who try to be the best versions of themselves? (Of course in different ways and for different reasons - like to achieve eternal life)
Also how easy do you find changing your character to match what you would like to be? Eg. Becoming not patronizing.
I found it somehow very easy to come from me being a geek and being somewhat awkward around kids to be the funny uncle. Or by not liking animals to now owning a cat.
I like this conversation very much too. And I like the way you describe your will to volunteer and your conception of the steps ahead.
As for religions, I’m not certain. I can really like and admire people who live and love deeply something in the religious faith. Alone or with others. But communities… I’m not saying social control is bad in itself but this type of social control is rather frightening to me.
And changing… What a topic! Did you ever try to measure the time it takes you to change on a specific aspect? It’s a very strange yet reassuring experience. I used to do this a lot, a bit less nowadays, but for example, I’d write :
“learn to handle praise to be as kind as possible with others, understanding it as” somehow I kinda like something in you" and accept the kindness but be unsettled by the praise itself, or, better, make yourself truly incapable of understanding it as a praise"
in a notebook, because it was a very often present in my thoughts and then, after writing, forget about it. Let things unfold organically without giving it much thoughts. An indeterminate time later, I’d be praised for school performance, for example, and… somehow, in a way I couldn’t fully understand, I both felt I understood the praise and I didn’t really know what to make of it, all the sudden.
Then, a few weeks later, after processing the event, grab my notebook and write : “8 months”.
It’s quite interesting, and gives a little sense of : “Hmmm… this may take quite a time, but let’s see when/how/by which ways I’ll try to get there… or at least somewhere close!”
I’m not a therapist or any variety of professional on the topic. I will tell you it sounds unhelpful to remove emotions. I know there are similar practices in things like Stoicism. But many people take those practices to extremes. You don’t sound like you’re doing anything like 100% extreme about emotional suppression but you are probably overdoing it like 80% extreme. If that makes sense.
Emotions are useful. They’re informational reactions to the world around us. I’m an extremely emotional person (big happies, big mads, big sads, etc) and sometimes letting that loose is a huge problem. I can make myself physically sick if I don’t regulate my emotions and reactions. But I learned and practiced how to feel my emotions and then let them pass, rather than trying to stomp them out entirely. Which never really works. Suppression just pushes the problems to your future self. It’s not a relief or release.
So I guess I’m trying to say, you’re not at all wrong for what you’re trying to accomplish. But I think you’re probably not going to succeed or improve (in the way that you want) going about it the way you have been. I’d recommend finding counselors who understand how to teach effective emotional regulation techniques, or practice meditation.
What’s the feeling you get when do well with this moral project?
What do you think you’ll feel like when you reach your goal? If don’t think the goal is attainable, what value does its pursuit bring?Interesting questions, thanks! I’m not sure I feel much when I’m doing well in that project. Not joy or pride for sure. Rather “we’ll, that could have been worse!”.
Bit what I’m almost sure about us the answer to your second question. My goal is unreachable, but pursuing it does bring the most important value : living the way I want to leave. It’s all about preparing for the end. When I’ll die, I just want to be able to say : everything I could do given the circumstances, my own strengths and weaknesses, what I was able to do at a given time, I tried to do it. So I regret nothing. In a way, I’ll die, sure and I don’t believe in any kind of afterlife, but somehow I’ll have lived to the fullest.
Cheers! It seems like your attitude is healthy and not self injurious. So that’s good. In posting this, you’re open enough to consider a possible blind spot. You’re curious, but not vexxed.
I wanted to pursue the answer to the second question in a moment but wanted to ask a couple of follow up questions first.
- How do close friends and family regard you when you are trying to live this pure life?
- Are you able to be vulnerable with them?
- Do you hold them to these standards as well?
- Do you hold them to standards that they don’t hold themselves to?
So as whole, I suspect you’re well adjust especially if the above isn’t negatively effecting anyone. The following is a deeper set of questions. Their resolution, as far as I know, doesn’t necessarily bring about increased health and could, for certain types of psyches, be destabilizing. I don’t think you are that type of person, but listen to your own heart of course.
Regarding the second answer, you wish to die knowing you lived life to fullest. What does this wish give you? If you do stumble and you do have a regret at the time of your death, why does it matter? Another way of asking this would be, if there is no after life and you are dead, what does it matter that you then died with a regret? What purpose does dying with no regret serve? In a similar vein, does not wanting to die with regrets keep you from pursuing parts of life that you might have pursued if you did not have that goal?
I want reiterate that that these questions aren’t an indicator of mental health. I also want to say that the framing of the issue and the questions lend itself to seeming like there’s a right answer. There isn’t. Honestly, the right answer could be that it feels right. And not having that feels wrong.
Thank you for your message!
I’ll try to answer as best as I can. My close friends and family sometimes mock me gently for my attitude, but overall, I think they’re happy with it. Even if they’re trying to help me learn about how to take breaks. I’m listening, but the translation process is quite long.
Being vulnerable with them is hard. But I’m trying my best. I think I’ve been doing it increasingly the last year but that’s never easy. It happens, now, though!
I really don’t think I hold them to these standards. And that’s 'it because they wouldn’t be worthy of these standard, making me a superior being. It’s just that… they have their own sets of standards. Mine are about, err… morals. Theirs can be about creativity, balance or anything else and it would be equally beautiful. Well, if they were terrible human beings, I don’t think we would be friends at all.
As for your last question, yes, I do… I think. I hold them to what I liked in them. Even if I admit people may change, even radically. I… yeah, there’s something in them that I loved. And that thing may very well change in it’s expression, but if at some point I feel it’s totally gone, I may have a hard time remaining friends with them. But I suppose most people react like that?
Regarding your thoughts, well… That’s a tough one.
But a really interesting one as well.
I’m not really sure… I suppose that may be my way to avoid being scared of death while I live ? Imagining the scene and just being like “Well, it’s okay if it ends now, I explored the way I’ve chosen in life as much as I could”. There may be something like that. I imagine it’s more… serene?
I’m not sure - but maybe I don’t see - what parts of life I would miss right now. Because I don’t think I’m… hmm… forbidding myself any specific path I would like to tread with these standards. Drugs? Certain types of illegal acts? Starting over in another country? Why not. Things I don’t want to do, though, like trying to dominate people, I could say I’m preventing myself from that, but really, that’s… contradicting all I want so strongly I’m not even sure who “I” is in this case.
Il not 100% sure about my answer, but your question about death was a very interesting one. And I really appreciate the way you framed it. Thank you!
It can be interesting to have high moral standards. No one goes around thinking they have low moral standards. Rather, most people conceive of themselves as having high standards that still make them socially relatable. Some people use their high moral stands to isolate themselves. This can lead to either sadness or hubris. Either way, these standards can make it difficult to connect them. How to open up, how far to open, how long to open comes so naturally to most that it’s like riding a bicycle or tying your shoelaces.
If the learning window is missed, having people explain what feels natural is difficult for them. If you’ve ever taught someone to ride a bicycle or tie their shoes, you know what I mean. Many people who missed this window are not predisposed to type of intelligence and we’re busy enthralled with something else. So they are at the same time, often, advance in one area and deficient in another.
If they’ve situated their pride and identity in the area in which they previously focused and if they also have a pride that values results over process embarrassment and shame can creep in. Vulnerability is a liability and not an asset.
In the case of hubris, I think it’s due to a feeling of fear of vunerersbility and shame causing one to harden their resolve so that they don’t feel the shame again.
In the case of those with sadness, it due to a loneliness. No one else shares their high morals and therefore no one gets who they are.
I don’t think you’re either one of these and none of this is as linear as I’ve presented it or as clear cut. Just some tendencies. You may find one sentence resonates strong and another wholly off the mark. Of course if your pride is more flexible and you don’t mind the process, that great! The above will only appear as shadows and not currents.
But it sounds like you have healthy relationships with friends and family, so I don’t think you really have to worry about too much. In my view, vulnerability and empathy create a bond that is strong in a way that you can lose yourself. You can never really lose yourself of course and, I believe, that you never really have yourself as well. But in a space of love and connection we are freer to be a spontaneous expression of self with and through others and they with us.
This is rather cryptic as experience roots words. But this is a space or mode of living that can open when connections are created. And high morals can isolate one from those opportunities. That isolation can keep us separate from creative acts as well. And these are the types of things that I would say you might be missing out on. I don’t think they are readily available to most, but they seem to appear occasionally.
Any case… I hope I didn’t get too woo for you or make it sound like there’s anything wrong with what you’re doing. You sound like a high character individual and suspect when your friends and family reflect upon you, there is warmth in their hearts.
I think it’s pretty normal to hold yourself to a standard you don’t impose on others, and I do think it’s somewhat problematic, like perfectionism is. If you get mad at yourself for messing up and not being inhumanly perfect then yeah that’s not good. You are a person too, and should give yourself consideration.
If you just mean you try to think before you act and consider how your words and actions affect others, I would hope everyone does that!
You were so busy being moral you forgot to consider what morality means.
It sounds like scrupulosity OCD.
long as its for your own approval its fine. maybe a tad ocd but fine
Ocd is a nice lead indeed ^^
well, it is if the “o” isnt as “o” as it usually is
