How does that prevent Russia from attacking at a future date? It seems like your objection to my proposal that it would only stop the war, “For now” is just as much of a problem in your proposal. As such, I think that it’s an invalid objection and can be dismissed, seeing as you seem to be perfectly happy with a proposal that contains the same possibility, if it’s the one you prefer.
So, that being the case, I submit that an agreement where the killing stops is mutually beneficial to everyone, not just Russia, and that throwing more draftees at fortified Russian positions is not worth the potential territorial gains.
There is no way to ever prevent a hypothetical future invasion of any country. As I said, Ukraine already made a deal with Russia for this to not happen. Any country could send its military over its border any time, regardless of any negotiated peace in the past.
You cannot future-proof treaties. It’s not possible.
Your point is that treaties shouldn’t be negotiated equitably because they can’t be future-proofed? Because that sounds like a “let Russia do whatever they want” argument.
My point that any peace agreement will contain the possibility of future conflict, so pointing that out is not a valid criticism of a specific hypothetical peace agreement.
Yes, if Ukraine agrees to some territorial concessions, it won’t guarantee peace for a thousand years. If they reclaimed all their territory, it wouldn’t do that either. But it would stop the killing and could provide the framework for a lasting peace. That’s a better deal for the average Ukrainian that being drafted and thrown into a warzone to reclaim some rubble.
Russia giving back all the territory they took would also be a framework for lasting peace. You, once again, are saying Russia should get everything and Ukraine nothing.
Russia giving back all the territory they took would also be a framework for lasting peace.
Yes, it would be. Assuming the civil war was also resolved. The problem is that getting there requires throwing a ton of more lives into the meat grinder, which is worse for the Ukrainian people than accepting territorial concessions.
How does that prevent Russia from attacking at a future date? It seems like your objection to my proposal that it would only stop the war, “For now” is just as much of a problem in your proposal. As such, I think that it’s an invalid objection and can be dismissed, seeing as you seem to be perfectly happy with a proposal that contains the same possibility, if it’s the one you prefer.
So, that being the case, I submit that an agreement where the killing stops is mutually beneficial to everyone, not just Russia, and that throwing more draftees at fortified Russian positions is not worth the potential territorial gains.
There is no way to ever prevent a hypothetical future invasion of any country. As I said, Ukraine already made a deal with Russia for this to not happen. Any country could send its military over its border any time, regardless of any negotiated peace in the past.
You cannot future-proof treaties. It’s not possible.
Exactly my point.
Your point is that treaties shouldn’t be negotiated equitably because they can’t be future-proofed? Because that sounds like a “let Russia do whatever they want” argument.
My point that any peace agreement will contain the possibility of future conflict, so pointing that out is not a valid criticism of a specific hypothetical peace agreement.
Yes, if Ukraine agrees to some territorial concessions, it won’t guarantee peace for a thousand years. If they reclaimed all their territory, it wouldn’t do that either. But it would stop the killing and could provide the framework for a lasting peace. That’s a better deal for the average Ukrainian that being drafted and thrown into a warzone to reclaim some rubble.
Russia giving back all the territory they took would also be a framework for lasting peace. You, once again, are saying Russia should get everything and Ukraine nothing.
Yes, it would be. Assuming the civil war was also resolved. The problem is that getting there requires throwing a ton of more lives into the meat grinder, which is worse for the Ukrainian people than accepting territorial concessions.
A withdrawal as part of a negotiated treaty would kill more Ukrainian people? How?
What’s your plan for getting Putin to agree to such a proposal?