• Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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    2 months ago

    But I also understand that the people of Odessa have their own version of what being Ukranian is and means.

    You could have said the same thing about Southern Confederates in the U.S. in the 1860s. They don’t get to have their own version anymore.

    • Lauchs@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Are you actually comparing Odessa to the Confederates? That’s a real decision you’re making?

      Edit: trying to understand this take… Are you perhaps confused and thinking Odessa is part of Russia?

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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        2 months ago

        I’m saying that when your country is invaded, worrying about respecting the people who’s culture is the same as the invader’s is a great way to get a bunch of fifth columnists. And I’m not sure why you’re not aware of that. Similarly, despite the many British people of German heritage, in 1939, their “unique British-German culture” was not relevant and was not respected and should not have been.

        • Lauchs@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          This was the rationale behind America’s Japanese internment camps, which in my opinion, weren’t great.

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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            2 months ago

            I mean there’s a happy medium between not allowing things like allowing them to openly celebrate Russian stuff and putting them in internment camps…

            • Lauchs@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              To be clear, you think Japanese Americans shouldn’t have been allowed to speak Japanese anymore?

              How long should this have persisted?

                • Lauchs@lemmy.world
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                  2 months ago

                  That’s a chunk of what the article is about. That’s one of the main things…

                  What do you think the article is about?

                  • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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                    2 months ago

                    I thought we were trying to define what counts as genocide, not what this article is about. Which are we doing?

        • Ginja@lemmy.worldOP
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          2 months ago

          That’s literally calling for genocide? You’re telling a peoples (who are the victims of an invasion) that they cannot have their own culture because it’s similar to an invaders?

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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            2 months ago

            No. It literally is not calling for genocide any more than it would be calling for genocide to say that the French should stop teaching kids German in school in Alasace-Lorraine before the Nazis invaded.

            • Ginja@lemmy.worldOP
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              2 months ago

              Yes, without a doubt denying children their cultural language and customs is a form of ethnocide/genocide.

              • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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                2 months ago

                Not teaching it in school isn’t the same as denying it. No country teaches every language spoken at home in schools.

                I suppose if the U.S. invaded Mexico and Mexico banned the U.S. cultural enclaves that had arisen there from celebrating July 4th, that would also be genocide?

                Seems like genocide is not all that horrific in your view.

                • jordanlund@lemmy.worldM
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                  2 months ago

                  Article II of the genocide convention has 5 definitions, any one of the five is enough for it to be called a genocide:

                  https://iccforum.com/genocide-convention

                  (a) Killing members of the group;

                  (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

                  © Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

                  (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

                  (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

                  Attempting to eliminate a culture by restricting it’s beliefs, teachings, or language would fall under ©. This is precisely what was done in the US and Canada with “Indian Schools” for example, and partially is what is being done to the Uyghurs in China, although they are also being subjected to (a), (b), (d) and (e) as well.

                  • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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                    2 months ago

                    Indian Schools were boarding schools that forced kids to use English. That is not the same.

                    I gave two scenarios here: Public schools not teaching Russian in Ukraine and a hypothetical scenario where the very real American enclaves in Mexico were prevented from celebrating U.S. independence day if Mexico were invaded and asked if those were genocide. Neither of them fit that list and yet I have been told the former is genocide and, despite three responses, the latter has yet to be even responded to.

                    So I will ask both again, rephrasing one of them:

                    1. There are lots of Chinese-Americans in the U.S. If no U.S. public school taught Mandarin, would that be genocide?

                    2. There are American cultural enclaves in Mexico. If the U.S. invaded Mexico and Mexico told those cultural enclaves they couldn’t celebrate the 4th of July, would that be genocide?

                    I would really appreciate an answer. Because if the answer to both questions, especially the first one, is ‘yes,’ the genocide is, as I said, not all that horrific.

                • Ginja@lemmy.worldOP
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                  2 months ago

                  Not teaching the local language in schools, to instead force them to use your own is denying it and it is genocide.

                  Go to China and look at how they are wiping our local ethnicity through exactly that, they are forcing generations to grow up learning Mandarin in schools, legislating that TV must be in Mandarin, etc. and through this they are causing languages like Cantonese to lose their daily usage and thus die off.

                  It’s what a large swathe of Europe did during the 19th and 20th century, where local languages (and their corresponding cultures) were basically killed, e.g. everyone in France basically speaks Parisian France, with only Brittany holding out its culture.

                  Seems like genocide is not all that horrific in your view.

                  This is revolting to hear anyone say.

                  • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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                    2 months ago

                    You entirely avoided my question and I think you know why.

                    There are enclaves of people with American heritage in Mexico. Some have been there for generations. If the U.S. invaded and Mexico said they couldn’t celebrate the 4th of July, would that be genocide?