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Joined 1 year ago
Cake day: July 19th, 2023
  • PotatoKat@lemmy.worldtoAsk Lemmy@lemmy.world•How serious are you guys when you talk about punching nazis?
    2·
    2 months ago

    The reason Nazis and the KKK rally is partially the same reason the Westboro Baptist yell incendiary remarks: because it’s legal

    Cool, shouldn’t be.

    It gets recorded, then their recruitment surges and that person gets thrown in jail for battery charges while they bait lawsuits for damages. Being taken down physically doesn’t do jack shit.

    Only because not enough people punch them. The fear that they instill in others should be instilled in them. Every time they say some shit they should be thinking “will this get me punched if i say this right now?” Every time.

    Sorry, that’s not how it work. Again, review Brandenburg v. Ohio. Someone saying mean things to you that doesn’t amount to an imminent violence or a direct threat doesn’t warrant punching

    I don’t care what the law says. It is wrong. “Bury the removeds” is inciting violence. I don’t care what a bunch of old fucks in 1969 said. They were wrong. You deserve to be punched if you call a black dude a “dirty removed”. If you disagree then we are at an impass. Law isn’t morality, it was illegal to take slaves to free states, it was illegal to hide Jews from nazis, it was legal to rape your wife till the 90s, it is illegal to punch bigots that call you a slur, and it’s legal to steal someone’s home in the west bank. The law is wrong in this case.

    The problem is that you’re going about fighting fascism the wrong way. If you didn’t put the cart before the horse, then it should already be self-evident that fascism is wrong. So this requires going backwards and analyzing why your messaging strategy is failing. Why there is a vector into this radicalization in the first place. Is it genetic predisposition? (hopefully not or at least the bar for evidence is enormous, lest you’re a racist yourself). Is it simply a matter of environmental factors from low education to toxic parenting and diminished opportunity? No differently than the inner-city violence to the white Appalachian poverty & crime, this is probably more likely. So instead of going, “hur let’s punch nazis!”, perhaps we need to assess what are better strategies, from satire & mockery, to actually tackling the key vectors into which a “normie” gets radicalized in the first place. Is this as exciting? No. It’s the harder, more constructive work.

    Did i ever say we should only punch them? All of the reasons they turn into Nazis need to be addressed, it’s social/economic, not genetic.

    First it starts with, “punching an Israeli occupier to our land is okay!” and steadily progresses

    Actually first it starts with being kicked from their homes and being forced into apartide. Were the slaves who killed their enslavers wrong for doing so?

    Congrats, you discovered what feels good isn’t necessarily effective in your end goal.

    Okay so I shouldn’t feed the homeless because the end goal is to fix homelessness and poverty and that requires systemic change? Fixing fascism requires systemic change but in the meantime we need to make them fear spreading their ideas. Fixing homelessness/hunger requires systemic change but in the meantime we should feed the homeless.

    I love how this was completely and entirely deflected with a modicum of substance. Once again, proving the point that you’re in the “Punch a nazi” thing based on how it feels good to you — not because it actually yields productive results.

    You literally said time is better served arguing online lmao. If you would have said canvassing or something (like you did in another comment) I would have agreed with you, but also. You can do both.

    That’s how THEY would frame it, wrong though it may be. They then justify their actions because of this perceived preemptive intolerance. Naturally it’s total bullshit and what they’re really fighting for is the maintaining of their historically privileged positions in society. Still, that doesn’t change the underlying point I’m making. Both circumstances justify preemptive physical violence via ends-justify-the-means mentality.

    Dude they frame it that way anyway so if changes nothing. It doesn’t matter. How many of the past few shooters have they accused of being trans based on nothing just so they can frame it like they’re fighting for their existence. Like they scream white genocide at every turn they get.

    I mean fuck, man, we teach our kids the same shit: That crossing the verbal-physical barrier of aggression is a no-go with your siblings. Now if they throw the actual first physical punch, then sure.

    Because kids aren’t mature enough to grasp nuance and fully understand when words are violent. And frankly? I’m going to teach my kids that it’s okay to punch people that call them or someone else a slur. Maybe not until they’re early teens (because again nuance), but it’s not okay to call someone a “dirty removed” like the old white fucks (and one old black fuck) who decided your coveted Brandenburg v. Ohio thought. Because unlike them and unlike you I do not tolerate the intolerant

  • PotatoKat@lemmy.worldtoAsk Lemmy@lemmy.world•How serious are you guys when you talk about punching nazis?
    0·
    2 months ago

    Some of you here sound really young — like under 20 — and you’ve just recently learned about this concept and it’s blowing your mind and so you repeat for lack of a better, deeper understanding.

    Wrong. Not giving my age on here but you’re way off the mark here

    Yet I say again the untouched point: It does not give you carte blanche to react however you see fit.

    Here is the biggest strawman, I never said you could do whatever. Don’t rape them, don’t torture them, hell even killing is too far 99% of the time. Fascists thrive on being viewed as strong men and nothing is more humiliating to them than being taken down physically. Words mean nothing to the antisemite

    Across the globe we’ve sustained tolerant societies for quite a degree of time without a law that says, “to maintain civil order, we must all punch Nazis, or worse.”

    And yet here we are in 2024 with the far right rising globally and “counter protesting harder and voting harder” has done nothing to stop the spread of their messages

    Yes, people should be intolerant to intolerance; but there still requires a degree of proportionality at play here. Punching a Nazi violates countless other laws of society we’ve identified for ourselves that help to also maintain a tolerant society, and until that Nazi punches someone themselves, then there is no reciprocation.

    Their words are violence. Physical is not the only form of violence. They make minorities fear going outside. It is proportional to make them fear spreading their message through the only means they understand. They are violating the social contract they are no longer covered by the contract

    It’s a bait that often leads to martyrdom and increased recruitment. They take said video and go, “look at the tolerant left! Look at their hypocritical ideals about free speech!”

    When was the last time you heard from Richard Spencer in a serious/public manner? For me it was not too long after he got humiliated by a fist in the face.

    The bar for evidence of vigilante justice is tenuous at best, and you may attack someone innocent, or more importantly someone who may escape from the propaganda in time but now may simply double-down

    Or, more likely, the someone who git hit now thinks twice about saying that shit publicly because the remember the feeling of fist on skull. Also innocent? Its not hard to tell when someone is spreading intolerance so that’s not likely to happen

    This doesn’t hold up in court. You will get charged with battery and receive a felony while the nazi goes free.

    Congrats you discovered law isn’t morality. I will happily give the homeless food in cities where that is illegal.

    Your time is better served dismantling the rhetoric online.

    Lol, lmao even

    Don’t become what you hate. Ironically the rhetoric you use here is also the logical loophole for which right-wing extremists rationalize their violence as to why they are the good guys.

    Really? They believe you should only attack the intolerant? I thought they wanted to attack me a trans person for existing in front of society, or interacting with children, or because I’m simply an abomination.