I just don’t understand why we can’t start the exact same revolution these people want during the primaries. It would make much more sense to win over/capture the party and then push that platform in the general. You get real power to get actual shit done without risking fascism by letting the GOP win due to the spoiler effect.
If someone can make the “revolution is necessary” argument, that should be a perfectly acceptable plan. I think they just want complete collapse so they can try and rebuild, which is complete psychopathic nonsense.
I just don’t understand why we can’t start the exact same revolution these people want during the primaries.
Are you suggesting a revolution is done within the bounds of the electoral system?
It would make much more sense to win over/capture the party and then push that platform in the general
You can’t “capture” or “win over” parties like that, the electoral system is a filter.
You can’t change a party’s platform in the general with some grand prayer or anything, they will do what they need to to satisfy their donors.
You get real power to get actual shit done
No, you don’t.
If someone can make the “revolution is necessary” argument, that should be a perfectly acceptable plan. I think they just want complete collapse so they can try and rebuild, which is complete psychopathic nonsense.
You’re right, that is nonsense, please read leftist theory and talk to actual leftists. Nobody wants to rebuild from collapse.
Are you suggesting a revolution is done within the bounds of the electoral system?
Third party candidates and their supporters sure seem to.
You can’t “capture” or “win over” parties like that, the electoral system is a filter
There hasn’t been large ideological shifts within the 2 major parties? Are you serious? I will provide you an example: look at the GOP. The past several decades right wing radicals have focused on capturing local elections and statehouses, it has been wildly successful for them and has allowed these people to completely capture the party and expel pretty much any opposition. Capturing a party is absolutely in the table, we literally have historical examples with these same parties.
Third party candidates and their supporters sure seem to.
They don’t.
There hasn’t been large ideological shifts within the 2 major parties? Are you serious? I will provide you an example: look at the GOP. The past several decades right wing radicals have focused on capturing local elections and statehouses, it has been wildly successful for them and has allowed these people to completely capture the party and expel pretty much any opposition. Capturing a party is absolutely in the table, we literally have historical examples with these same parties.
Why has the GOP (and DNC) gone further right? Random radicals? No. Fascism is Capitalism in decline, it’s an inevitability that the establishment parties would move towards it.
I just don’t understand why we can’t start the exact same revolution these people want during the primaries.
Revolution does not follow the electoral cycle. PSL is constantly doing work. This is just a vehicle for reaching those who do not understand politics beyond electoralism and to raise the correct position that both capitalist parties create and maintain our oppression.
There is not going to be a revolutionary movement that begins work during a primary and then has completed the revolution at its end. Revolutionary work requires building organizations over years and decades.
It would make much more sense to win over/capture the party and then push that platform in the general.
The party will never allow that lmao. Every attempt to work within the most viable party for this, the Democrats, has resulted in them changing their own rules. Just see how it worked out for the members of the DSA who took over in Nevada.
You get real power to get actual shit done without risking fascism by letting the GOP win due to the spoiler effect.
Biden and Harris are just as fascistic as Trump. They are nationalists committing genocide scapegoating immigrants and people overseas and pumping huge sums of money into cops’ funds in response to uprisings over racial policing and racial oppression. They are just polite about it and use the right euphemisms.
Their policies are, in fact, the main driver of an ascendant right. Their policies degrade conditions and the response to them and fail to address the scapegoating that marginalization provides.
If someone can make the “revolution is necessary” argument, that should be a perfectly acceptable plan.
Of course it is necessary. You think the capitalists will just let you vote them out of power?
I think they just want complete collapse so they can try and rebuild, which is complete psychopathic nonsense.
Please do less bullshit guessing and actually learn about this topic.
Get the fuck out. Stop. You are being irresponsible with this bullshit rhetoric and you’re actively contributing to harm. Knock off the militant edgelord bullshit.
The Biden-Harris administration is massively pro-cop, providing the largest national infusion into cop budgets in history, has ramped up anti-immigrant policies attempting to outflank Republicans from the right, including working on Trump’s border wall, broke a strike, forced the public back to work by normalizing a pandemic, and is now committing a genocide via Israel.
The issue here is likely that you aren’t familiar with what fascism was.
Trump, Biden, and Harris are all liberals, as in of the popular ideology of capitalism. They are in favor of markets to “solve problems” and tend to try to remove barriers to them. When organized labor threatens this, they try to have it both ways by saying they are pro-union while doing strike breaker things in action. When finance demands blood, they assent, whether this is domestic in the form of raising unemployment or cutting benefits to make workers more desperate or overseas using similar financial tricks or just straight-up war.
Fascism was a political movement that really only existed for a short period as capitalism emerged as fully imperialist and countries that had too small of a piece of the pie but a people that expected a big one had a serious contradiction between liberal policies (which would see their material well-being and status decrease) and the need for imperialism to carve out that inter-country exploitation to offset this. Fascism was born as an anti-liberalism, a faux anticapitalism, that sought a restoration of a semi-imagined past glory, an ascendant nation built on imperial expansion, and various aesthetics and scapegoats serving these ends.
It is currently impossible for a US president to be an actual fascist. The US sits at the throne of international capital and every major candidate seeks to maintain this system, not tear it up for further expansion because it is somehow behind the other powers and faces being imperialized.
What is possible is for candidates to forward policies that are genocidal, xenophobic, racist, warmongering, pro-cop, pro-state surveillance, personally aggrandizing, etc etc. Sometimes people say this is what is fascistic. But these are all common features of liberalism! The main difference between the Nazi (fascist) expansion and genocides of Germany Eastward vs. the US expansion and genocides of indigenous Americans is that the Americans succeeded. They had the power and time and will to carry out the deed. The horrors of fascism are of mainstream liberalism, they were all inspired by liberal imperial conquest, industrialization, and mass murder.
But again, none of the candidates are actually fascist, they uphold the liberal status quo. Trump is just more rude about it. He openly scapegoats immigrants while Biden and Harris simply pretend to care about them while implementing the sane or worse xenophobic policies. Notice how Democrats tried to outflank Republicans with their border bill? How they are projecting a “strong” border? That the Biden admin is completing sections of Trump’s wall? The massive ramp up of rejecting and deporting asylum seekers? These are all fascistic things. The difference is largely perception. Democrats don’t care about kids in cages when they do it. The topic isn’t even covered, there are no PR pushes. It fades into an uncognizant background normalization where the average Dem assumes it is all over without actually checking on the detention centers or listening to the people doing solidarity work for those inside them or the people waiting just across the border in terrible conditions.
And again, the Biden-Harris administration is committing a genocide via full material and diplomatic support for and defense of Israel.
If you oppose the horrors of fascism, you need to begin actually questioning and opposing the forces that create and maintain them. That includes fighting against people like Biden and Harris, who have at least as substantial of a legacy of such material harms, if not more. Again, genocide. Do not support genocids. That is not an okay thing to do.
I have no interest in discussing this topic with someone who lives in a different reality than the rest of us. If you’re not able to make an honest assessment of the threats here we aren’t going to get anywhere productive. Have a nice day!
I just laid out an honest assessment of the threats, the real and material things, the history and current policies. And you are now bailing rather than look at them squarely and actually respond to the content.
If you want to change the system and think you can do it from within, the primaries are the time. If you don’t think you can do it from within, do it from without and have your revolution on the streets—dont spoil the candidate that more closely aligns with your views.
If you don’t think you can do it from within, do it from without and have your revolution on the streets—dont spoil the candidate that more closely aligns with your views.
Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans more closely align with Marxist views, both are so far removed that it isn’t a spoiler.
I just don’t understand why we can’t start the exact same revolution these people want during the primaries. It would make much more sense to win over/capture the party and then push that platform in the general. You get real power to get actual shit done without risking fascism by letting the GOP win due to the spoiler effect.
If someone can make the “revolution is necessary” argument, that should be a perfectly acceptable plan. I think they just want complete collapse so they can try and rebuild, which is complete psychopathic nonsense.
Are you suggesting a revolution is done within the bounds of the electoral system?
You can’t “capture” or “win over” parties like that, the electoral system is a filter.
You can’t change a party’s platform in the general with some grand prayer or anything, they will do what they need to to satisfy their donors.
No, you don’t.
You’re right, that is nonsense, please read leftist theory and talk to actual leftists. Nobody wants to rebuild from collapse.
Third party candidates and their supporters sure seem to.
There hasn’t been large ideological shifts within the 2 major parties? Are you serious? I will provide you an example: look at the GOP. The past several decades right wing radicals have focused on capturing local elections and statehouses, it has been wildly successful for them and has allowed these people to completely capture the party and expel pretty much any opposition. Capturing a party is absolutely in the table, we literally have historical examples with these same parties.
They don’t.
Why has the GOP (and DNC) gone further right? Random radicals? No. Fascism is Capitalism in decline, it’s an inevitability that the establishment parties would move towards it.
Revolution does not follow the electoral cycle. PSL is constantly doing work. This is just a vehicle for reaching those who do not understand politics beyond electoralism and to raise the correct position that both capitalist parties create and maintain our oppression.
There is not going to be a revolutionary movement that begins work during a primary and then has completed the revolution at its end. Revolutionary work requires building organizations over years and decades.
The party will never allow that lmao. Every attempt to work within the most viable party for this, the Democrats, has resulted in them changing their own rules. Just see how it worked out for the members of the DSA who took over in Nevada.
Biden and Harris are just as fascistic as Trump. They are nationalists committing genocide scapegoating immigrants and people overseas and pumping huge sums of money into cops’ funds in response to uprisings over racial policing and racial oppression. They are just polite about it and use the right euphemisms.
Their policies are, in fact, the main driver of an ascendant right. Their policies degrade conditions and the response to them and fail to address the scapegoating that marginalization provides.
Of course it is necessary. You think the capitalists will just let you vote them out of power?
Please do less bullshit guessing and actually learn about this topic.
Get the fuck out. Stop. You are being irresponsible with this bullshit rhetoric and you’re actively contributing to harm. Knock off the militant edgelord bullshit.
The Biden-Harris administration is massively pro-cop, providing the largest national infusion into cop budgets in history, has ramped up anti-immigrant policies attempting to outflank Republicans from the right, including working on Trump’s border wall, broke a strike, forced the public back to work by normalizing a pandemic, and is now committing a genocide via Israel.
What do you think it means to be fascistic?
Stop being a militant purist, it makes you one of the impediments to actual progress in this country.
What on earth is purist in what I said? Do you have nothing to say in response to my explanations? Am I right in them? Where am I wrong?
Yeah, and I’m the one bullshitting…
The issue here is likely that you aren’t familiar with what fascism was.
Trump, Biden, and Harris are all liberals, as in of the popular ideology of capitalism. They are in favor of markets to “solve problems” and tend to try to remove barriers to them. When organized labor threatens this, they try to have it both ways by saying they are pro-union while doing strike breaker things in action. When finance demands blood, they assent, whether this is domestic in the form of raising unemployment or cutting benefits to make workers more desperate or overseas using similar financial tricks or just straight-up war.
Fascism was a political movement that really only existed for a short period as capitalism emerged as fully imperialist and countries that had too small of a piece of the pie but a people that expected a big one had a serious contradiction between liberal policies (which would see their material well-being and status decrease) and the need for imperialism to carve out that inter-country exploitation to offset this. Fascism was born as an anti-liberalism, a faux anticapitalism, that sought a restoration of a semi-imagined past glory, an ascendant nation built on imperial expansion, and various aesthetics and scapegoats serving these ends.
It is currently impossible for a US president to be an actual fascist. The US sits at the throne of international capital and every major candidate seeks to maintain this system, not tear it up for further expansion because it is somehow behind the other powers and faces being imperialized.
What is possible is for candidates to forward policies that are genocidal, xenophobic, racist, warmongering, pro-cop, pro-state surveillance, personally aggrandizing, etc etc. Sometimes people say this is what is fascistic. But these are all common features of liberalism! The main difference between the Nazi (fascist) expansion and genocides of Germany Eastward vs. the US expansion and genocides of indigenous Americans is that the Americans succeeded. They had the power and time and will to carry out the deed. The horrors of fascism are of mainstream liberalism, they were all inspired by liberal imperial conquest, industrialization, and mass murder.
But again, none of the candidates are actually fascist, they uphold the liberal status quo. Trump is just more rude about it. He openly scapegoats immigrants while Biden and Harris simply pretend to care about them while implementing the sane or worse xenophobic policies. Notice how Democrats tried to outflank Republicans with their border bill? How they are projecting a “strong” border? That the Biden admin is completing sections of Trump’s wall? The massive ramp up of rejecting and deporting asylum seekers? These are all fascistic things. The difference is largely perception. Democrats don’t care about kids in cages when they do it. The topic isn’t even covered, there are no PR pushes. It fades into an uncognizant background normalization where the average Dem assumes it is all over without actually checking on the detention centers or listening to the people doing solidarity work for those inside them or the people waiting just across the border in terrible conditions.
And again, the Biden-Harris administration is committing a genocide via full material and diplomatic support for and defense of Israel.
If you oppose the horrors of fascism, you need to begin actually questioning and opposing the forces that create and maintain them. That includes fighting against people like Biden and Harris, who have at least as substantial of a legacy of such material harms, if not more. Again, genocide. Do not support genocids. That is not an okay thing to do.
Or do you disagree?
I have no interest in discussing this topic with someone who lives in a different reality than the rest of us. If you’re not able to make an honest assessment of the threats here we aren’t going to get anywhere productive. Have a nice day!
I just laid out an honest assessment of the threats, the real and material things, the history and current policies. And you are now bailing rather than look at them squarely and actually respond to the content.
Please engage in good faith or not at all.
If you want to change the system and think you can do it from within, the primaries are the time. If you don’t think you can do it from within, do it from without and have your revolution on the streets—dont spoil the candidate that more closely aligns with your views.
Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans more closely align with Marxist views, both are so far removed that it isn’t a spoiler.