• mogoh@lemmy.ml
    453·
    2 months ago

    The systemd debate is basically dead. There are very few against it, but many accept it by now. Just avoid phoronix forum and some other places.

    • tortina_original@lemmy.world
      179·
      2 months ago

      “Just avoid places that sysadmins and security guys frequent and get your opinions on systemd from memes and people running arch on home machine”. Great plan.

      Systemd is absolute and utter shit, especially from security perspective.

      Noone was asking security guys but package maintainers.

      My favorite systemd thing is booting up a box with 6 NICs where only 1 was configured during the initial setup. Second favorite is betting on whether it will hang on reboot/shutdown.

      Great tool, 10/10.

      • renzev@lemmy.worldOPEnglish
        94·
        2 months ago

        I’ve gotten into quite a lot of systemd-related flame wars so far, and what strikes me is that I haven’t heard a single reason why systemd is good and should be used in favor of openrc/sysvinit/whatever. The only arguments I hear in favor of systemd, even from the its diehard defenders, are justifications why it’s not that bad. Not once have I heard someone advocate for systemd with reasoning that goes likes “Systemd is superior to legacy init systems because you can do X much easier” or “systemd is more secure because it’s resistant against Y attack vector”. It’s always “Linus says it’s allright” or “binary logfiles aren’t a problem, you can just get them from journald instead of reading the file”, or “everyone already uses it”.

        When it comes to online discourse, systemd doesn’t have advocates, it has apologists.

      • mogoh@lemmy.ml
        51·
        2 months ago

        “Just avoid places that sysadmins and security guys frequent and get your opinions on systemd from memes and people running arch on home machine”. Great plan.

        So salty. Also twisting the things I said. I for sure like to visit phoronix, but I avoid the phoronix forum and advice was to avoid the forum.

        Noone was asking security guys but package maintainers.

        citation needed.

        Keep using Devuan if it makes you happy.

        • tortina_original@lemmy.world
          46·
          2 months ago

          Not really interested in debating with average “I run arch btw” user. We are not in the same universe, things I have to audit and maintain are not in the same universe with things you do, so having such a smart advice coming from you is not a surprise at all. I could, after all, just roll out my own distro if I am not happy, amirite?

          I run systemd machines because I don’t have a choice. It doesn’t make it any less of a shit. Simple as that.

          But hey, tell me some more about systemd, I am really new to all this 🤔

          • renzev@lemmy.worldOPEnglish
            4·
            2 months ago

            Out of curiosity, why exactly do you not have a choice in not running systemd? Is it company policy / are they clients’ machines?

          • wormer@lemmy.ml
            3·
            2 months ago

            Buddy lay off the Rick and Morty and take a shower

            “I’m not in the same universe as you!!!” Get a grip

          • mogoh@lemmy.ml
            2·
            2 months ago

            Not really interested in debating with average “I run arch btw” user. We are not in the same universe, things I have to audit and maintain are not in the same universe with things you do

            Sir, this is the Linux memes sublemmy.

  • rtxn@lemmy.worldMEnglish
    272·
    2 months ago
    [     *] (3 of 3) A stop job is running for User Manager for UID 1000... (1m12s / 3m)
  • wormer@lemmy.ml
    305·
    2 months ago

    I feel like anyone who genuinely has a strong opinion on this and isn’t actively developing something related has too much time on their hands ricing their desktop and needs to get a job

    • rtxn@lemmy.worldMEnglish
      165·
      2 months ago

      My full-time job literally involves dealing with systemd’s crap. There is a raspberry pi that controls all of our signage. Every time it is powered on, systemd gets stuck because it’s trying to mount two separate partitions to the same mount point, whereupon I have to take a keyboard and a ladder, climb up the ceiling, plug in the keyboard, and press Enter to get it to boot. I’ve tried fixing it, but all I did was break it more.

    • loaExMachina@sh.itjust.works
      11·
      2 months ago

      As someone who’s not a developer at all and has been making a comic about systemd for a rather small audience, it’s worse than you think: We actually have stuff to do and procrastinate on them while spending time and thoughts in this, reading old blog posts and forum debates as if deciphering Sumerian epic poems. Many pages were made while I was supposed to be preparing for exams, which I barely passed. Others when I should’ve been cleaning up for moving. I think part of the reason why I haven’t made any in a while is that with a faithful audience being born and waiting for the next chapter, it’s started feeling like something I had to do, and therefore, the type of stuff I procrastinate on.

    • ysjet@lemmy.worldEnglish
      1·
      2 months ago

      As someone who has strong opinions on this, and not only has a job but has a job related to exactly sort of thing… We use freebsd.

      Specifically to avoid shit like systemd, and other questionable choices forced down people’s throats by idiots who can’t stop touching things that work well because they didn’t invent it.

  • MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml
    193·
    2 months ago

    Bullshit, there’s always reasons listed. Some more, some less opiniated, but there’s always lists.

    For me personally:

    • no portability
    • not-invented-here syndrome
      • manages stuff it shouldn’t, like DNS
      • makes some configurations unneccessarily complicated
    • more CVE than all other init together
      • service manager that runs with PID 0
    • BaumGeist@lemmy.ml
      142·
      2 months ago

      To the feature creep: that’s kind of the point. Why have a million little configs, when I could have one big one? Don’t answer that, it’s rhetorical. I get that there are use cases, but the average user doesn’t like having to tweak every component of the OS separately before getting to doom-scrolling.

      And that feature creep and large-scale adoption inevitably has led to a wider attack surface with more targets, so ofc there will be more CVEs, which—by the way—is a terrible metric of relative security.

      You know what has 0 CVEs? DVWA.

      You know what has more CVEs and a higher level of privilege than systemd? The linux kernel.

      And don’tme get started on how bughunters can abuse CVEs for a quick buck. Seriously: these people’s job is seeing how they can abuse systems to get unintended outcomes that benefit them, why would we expect CVEs to be special?

      TL;DR: That point is akin to Trump’s argument that COVID testing was bad because it led to more active cases (implied: being discovered).

        • TheKingBee@lemmy.worldEnglish
          41·
          2 months ago

          is it overengineering or just a push back against “make each program do one thing well,” and saying yeah but I have n things to do and I only need them done, well or not I just need them done and don’t want to dig through 20 files to do it…

          • MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml
            2·
            2 months ago

            I’d argue s6 does that aspect better, and without overengineering and userspace-dependents. Systemd was just the earlier bird.

  • cley_faye@lemmy.world
    7·
    2 months ago

    systemd, as a service manager, is decent. Not necessarily a huge improvement for most use cases.

    systemd, the feature creep that decides to pull every single possible use case into itself to manage everything in one place, with qwirks because making a “generic, do everything” piece of software is not a good idea, is not that great.

    systemd, the group of tools that decided to manage everything by rewriting everything from scratch and suffering from the same issue that were fixed decades ago, just because “we can do better” while changing all well known interfaces and causing a schism with either double workload or dropping support for half the landscape from other software developer is really stupid.

    If half the energy that got spent in the “systemd” ecosystem was spent in existing projects and solutions that already addressed these same issues, it’s likely we’d be in a far better place. Alas, it’s a new ecosystem, so we spend a lot of energy getting to the same point we were before. And it’s likely that when we get close to that, something new will show up and start the cycle again.

    • lightsblinken@lemmy.world
      2·
      2 months ago

      agree. i find the dns resolver in particular a dumpster fire of shitfuckery. name resolution was shitty, but a solution based on wrapper is just ugh.

    • platypus_plumba@lemmy.world
      1·
      2 months ago

      Learning how Systemd manages the network was a total mindfuck. There are so many alternatives, all of them being used differently by different tools, partially supported. networkd, Network Manager… There were other tools, they shared similar files but had them in different /etc or /usr folders. There were unexpected interactions between the tools… Oh man, it was so bad. I was very disappointed.

      I was really into learning how things really worked in Linux and this was a slap to my face because my mindset was “Linux is so straightforward”. No, it is not, it is actually a mess like most systems. I know this isn’t a “Linux” issue, I’m just ranting about this specific ecosystem.